17
   

Impeachment: The Process Begins

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 02:06 pm
@oralloy,
He wasnt lyncnlhed. He was a crook.just like his veep.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 02:47 pm
@MontereyJack,
When you abuse the law to destroy people over nothing, that's a lynching.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 02:50 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
Trump will be impeached for Obstructing Congress and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

If so, the Senate will treat the impeachment with the contempt that it deserves, and Trump will use his acquittal to campaign for reelection.

Setting aside the question of when the next Democratic president will be elected, what should we impeach them for? It's never too early to start drawing up charges.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 02:51 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
We voters disagree with you voters and we outnumber you as we did in 2016 and 18.

We'll see.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 03:21 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
If so, the Senate will treat the impeachment with the contempt that it deserves, and Trump will use his acquittal to campaign for reelection.


Wrong.

The Republicans will have to decide whether they will allow any President to ram-shod a co-equal branch of government. They will have to decide whether policies will be made via Twitter. They will have to decide whether the Rule of Law and the American people come first. They will have to decide whether they'd like to go down in history as complicit to the obliteration of what this country actually stands for.

And if they decide not to remove a sitting President, then they will get everything they deserve. Nothing.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 04:17 pm
@neptuneblue,
What the Republicans will get is reelected by people who are happy to see Trump stay in office as our President until 2025. They will indeed deserve it.
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 04:31 pm
@oralloy,
They're deserting a sinking ship...

AUG. 7, 2019, AT 7:00 AM

Why So Many House Republicans Are Retiring, And Why More Could Be On The Way
By Geoffrey Skelley

Filed under 2020 Election

House retirement season seems to be in full swing, particularly on the Republican side of the aisle. Over the past two weeks, six GOP House members have announced they are leaving office, including four members from Texas. In total, 11 House Republicans have said they are not running for reelection, including two members who are seeking higher office: Alabama Rep. Bradley Byrne is running for Senate, and Montana Rep. Greg Gianforte is running for governor.1 By contrast, only three Democrats have said they are retiring so far in the 2020 cycle.2

And given the high number of Republican retirements from the House in 2018 — at least 23, according to our count — which marked the most “pure” GOP retirements (in other words, excluding those who left to seek another office) since the 2008 election, we wanted to better understand what is driving Republican retirements this year. So here’s a look at how the members voted (including how often they were in line with the president’s stated position), the makeup of their districts and the margin by which they won reelection in 2018:

Nine ‘pure’ GOP retirements so far in the 2020 cycle
Republicans who declined to seek reelection, excluding those leaving to run for other office, as of Aug. 6, 2019

DISTRICT MEMBER TRUMP SCORE DW-NOMINATE SCORE PARTISAN LEAN* 2018 VOTE MARGIN
GA-07 Rob Woodall 100.0 0.605 R+17.2 +0.2
TX-23 Will Hurd 51.2 0.295 R+4.3 +0.4
TX-24 Kenny Marchant 95.2 0.602 R+17.3 +3.1
TX-22 Pete Olson 95.0 0.549 R+19.4 +4.9
IN-05 Susan Brooks 95.2 0.362 R+15.3 +13.5
AL-02 Martha Roby 95.2 0.362 R+31.0 +23.0
MI-10 Paul Mitchell 95.3 0.432 R+27.0 +25.3
UT-01 Rob Bishop 97.6 0.536 R+40.5 +36.7
TX-11 Mike Conaway 97.7 0.591 R+64.7 +61.7
Trump Score is just for the 116th Congress.

*FiveThirtyEight’s partisan lean metric is the average difference between how a state votes and how the country votes overall, with 2016 presidential election results weighted at 50 percent, 2012 presidential election results weighted at 25 percent and results from elections for the state legislature weighted at 25 percent. Note that the partisan leans in this article were calculated before the 2018 elections; we haven’t calculated FiveThirtyEight partisan leans that incorporate the midterm results yet.

SOURCE: ABC NEWS, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, VOTEVIEW

As you can see, these retirements have come from very different corners of the GOP. All but one of them has voted overwhelmingly with Trump during the 116th Congress, but the members range from being quite moderate to fairly conservative, based on the ideological measure DW-Nominate. And although the partisan lean of all these districts is at least somewhat Republican, the retirees also experienced a mix of results in 2018, ranging from extremely narrow wins to easy victories. But broadly speaking, these retirements fall into three main groups — those who have disagreed with the president, those who faced tough reelection odds and those who would likely lose their seniority status. Some members, of course, fall into more than one category.

First, there are the four Republicans who have criticized Trump or, at the very least, opposed him on key votes, suggesting a level of discomfort with the direction Trump is taking the GOP. Texas Rep. Will Hurd is the most obvious such case, in that he has the lowest Trump score among the Republicans retiring and the second lowest among Republicans in the 116th Congress. Hurd was one of 14 Republicans who voted to override Trump’s declaration of a national emergency on the U.S.-Mexico border, and was one of just four Republicans who voted in favor of a resolution that condemned Trump’s tweets about four Democratic congresswomen of color as racist. There is also Indiana Rep. Susan Brooks, who is one of the three other Republicans who voted to condemn those tweets. Brooks voted more in line with the president than Hurd, but as the co-chair of the Tuesday Group, a caucus of moderate Republicans in the House, she and other members of that group have had difficulties navigating Trump’s polarizing presidency.

And while Michigan Rep. Paul Mitchell didn’t vote to condemn the president over his tweets, he was openly critical of them. It may have been the last straw for Mitchell, too, as he announced his retirement about a week later, telling Politico that he was tired of the “rhetoric and vitriol.” Lastly, even though Alabama Rep. Martha Roby hasn’t been critical of Trump recently, and has a very pro-Trump voting record overall, she did say she wouldn’t vote for him in 2016 after the release of an Access Hollywood video tape showed Trump talking about groping women. And this hurt her reelection chances: she faced opposition from a write-in candidate in 2016 and had to survive a primary runoff in 2018.

This brings us to our next group of retirements: those who faced tough reelection bids. At least five of the Republicans retiring fall into this category (including Hurd and Roby), but for most of them, the general election looked to be their trouble spot and not the primary. Hurd, in particular, was vulnerable, as his seat is only 4 points more Republican than the country as a whole, according to FiveThirtyEight’s partisan lean metric,3 and he’s one of only three Republicans in districts Hillary Clinton won in 2016 who didn’t lose their seats in the 2018 midterm elections. Hurd barely held on in 2018, too, winning his seat by just 0.4 points, so he may have decided he didn’t want a rematch against his Democratic opponent, Gina Ortiz Jones, who is running again in 2020. As for the other Republicans in this category, their districts are redder than Hurd’s, but similar to Hurd, they faced close reelection bids in 2018. Georgia Rep. Rob Woodall, for instance, only held onto his seat after a recount. And two other Texas Republicans — Reps. Kenny Marchant and Pete Olson — won reelection in 2018 by fewer than 5 points. There are also signs that the largely suburban districts Marchant, Olson and Woodall represent are moving away from the GOP in the age of Trump, as part of more suburban districts voting Democratic.

As for the other two GOP retirements, they perhaps were unavoidable because of Republican conference rules that do not allow members to lead committees for more than three consecutive terms, unless they get a special waiver (which is rare). That meant the jig was up for both Texas Rep. Mike Conaway and Utah Rep. Rob Bishop, as each was in his third term as a ranking member or chairman (when the GOP had a majority) of his respective committee. In other words, even if Republicans won back the House majority in 2020, Conaway and Bishop wouldn’t become chairmen of the committees where they currently hold the top GOP spots. Given that they both represent safe Republican seats, they weren’t in electoral danger, so they may have just decided it wasn’t worth sticking around any longer.

Of course, these early retirements don’t necessarily signal a wave of future exits. But considering we’re still many months away from passing the deadlines to run for federal office in all 50 states, the retirement train may keep chugging along in the coming weeks. Other rumored potential retirees include veteran members like 17-term Michigan Rep. Fred Upton, who also voted to condemn the president’s tweets. More possible retirees include the two other Republicans holding onto seats Clinton won in 2016 — New York Rep. John Katko and Pennsylvania Rep. Brian Fitzpatrick. In fact, Fitzpatrick, who also voted to condemn Trump’s tweets, already has a prospective primary challenger lining up to take him on for being insufficiently pro-Trump. There’s also the fact that the last time a party flipped the House in a presidential cycle was in 1952. With that history in mind, as well as the misery of minority status in a hyper-partisan atmosphere on Capitol Hill, don’t be shocked if more Republicans decide to exit stage right.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 04:31 pm
I don't get the attraction of bickering with Oralloy. He has stated his extremely partisan opinion....and he has made it clear that he considers his partisan opinion to be righteous fact. I am OK with him expressing his opinion.

My prediction is that Republican elected officials will start turning on Trump. When this happens the extreme partisans will scream "treason" and blame the conspiracy of the press.

But there is no point in arguing about this until it happens. But pay attention. It may happen very quickly.
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 04:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, I don't get why you start whole threads specially to bicker with Izzy.

But we all have our vices.

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 04:57 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
They're deserting a sinking ship...

That article is about people leaving office for three different reasons.

Some are leaving office because they don't like Trump. Some are leaving office because they have weak reelection chances. And some are leaving office because they are term limited out of their committee chairmanships.

Where is the supposed sinking ship?
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 05:02 pm
@oralloy,
They're not lining up for re-election as you mentioned.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 05:17 pm
@neptuneblue,
An article about a handful of House Republicans retiring for very specific reasons does not mean that most Republicans (especially the senators who will acquit the President if he is impeached) are not going to run for reelection and win.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 06:40 pm
@neptuneblue,
Izzy is my stalker. I usually would prefer not to engage with him.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 05:28 pm
@maxdancona,
NOW we have evidence. A first order witness and a corroborating one with the promise of others is getting strong and its self -proving.

The issue of "hearsay" has been removed from Trumps quiver. Also, hes been his most damning witness who now admits to his phone calls and adds another country on video.
Now qe got something, which until last Fri we had none of. I was on a boat watchin TV when I was off watch. I herd it on Colbert. Caught it on the Sat NYT.




Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 07:09 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
If we're following the constitution, the president can be impeached for bribery, treason, high crimes, or misdemeanors, all of which are violations of the law. The first step of an impeachment process should be to specify exactly which statues may have been broken.


Here is a link to the US Constitution. Can you show me where you are getting this idea? https://constitutionus.com

The charge is that the President abused his power for personal political gain. If you are going to make the argument that there is nothing wrong with this... I think this is a losing political argument (and one without Constitutional merit).


From your link:

Section 4

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

As I said, if he is to be tried on this basis, it must be specified which high crime or misdemeanor was violated. Surely, it is common sense to state how the permissible grounds for impeachment were violated. Is "abused his power for personal political gain" a violation of a statute, and, if so, which one?
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 07:21 pm
@Brandon9000,
The charge against Trump is abuse of power. It is specifically that he used his authority as head of state to influence a foreign leader for his own personal political benefit.

Are you really arguing that this is not a crime? This is a politically losing argument... and a ridiculous one.

Where does it say in the Constitution that when it comes to presidential abuse of power it has to violate a "statute"? Abuse of power was part of the Nixon articles of impeachment. It seems pretty obvious that when a president misuses his office, he should be held accountable. Even Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 65 cited abuse of power as grounds for impeachment.

What the Constitution does say clearly is that the House of Representative has the sole power to make this determination.


oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 07:33 pm
@maxdancona,
If it is an abuse of power to try to have your rivals investigated, then when can we start hauling all of the progressives off to jail for trying to have Trump investigated?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 07:34 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
he has made it clear that he considers his partisan opinion to be righteous fact. I am OK with him expressing his opinion.

I only consider actual facts to be facts.

Facts are often inconvenient to progressives, but facts are not opinions.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 07:37 pm
@farmerman,
Geez Farmerman....

I say something, and you reject it out of hand. Colbert says the exact same thing, and you accept it as the Goddam gospel truth.

I get it. When I get my own nationally syndicated nightly TV show you will see...
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2019 08:05 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The charge against Trump is abuse of power. It is specifically that he used his authority as head of state to influence a foreign leader for his own personal political benefit.

Are you really arguing that this is not a crime? This is a politically losing argument... and a ridiculous one.

Where does it say in the Constitution that when it comes to presidential abuse of power it has to violate a "statute"? Abuse of power was part of the Nixon articles of impeachment. It seems pretty obvious that when a president misuses his office, he should be held accountable. Even Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 65 cited abuse of power as grounds for impeachment.

What the Constitution does say clearly is that the House of Representative has the sole power to make this determination.

The Constitution lists the permissible grounds as only Bribery, Treason, High Crimes, and misdemeanors. High crimes are undoubtedly crimes - probably what we would today call felonies. Misdemeanors are crimes less than felonies. Bribery and treason are also crimes. Anybody can call something that he doesn't personally like an abuse. Statutes are written down. So, I'll ask you again, which law did he violate?
 

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