Christianity recognizes the impossibility of attaining perfection.
Quote:Christianity recognizes the impossibility of attaining perfection.
Then it would be illogical to imagine a god who would punish humans for not attaining the unattainable.
What Christianity does is provide a path to ascend away from sin by allowing people to acknowledge/confess and repent for sin without dying of shame at the sight of their hideous true selves.
Quote:What Christianity does is provide a path to ascend away from sin by allowing people to acknowledge/confess and repent for sin without dying of shame at the sight of their hideous true selves.
But I am a good person, and I have provided my own path away from what I recognize as harmful activity. I don't feel shame for what I have done in the past; nor do I think of my true self as hideous. What I'm saying is that I'm fine.
How does my effort to live a good life mean that I don't see all the problems of the world?
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
Because you said that you don't feel shame for things you've done in the past.
Are you aware that your way of life is built on a foundation laid by past generations?
Are you aware that we are complicit in the sins of our ancestors the same way we are complicit in the sins of criminals when we help them in exchange for money?
When you try to change people for the better and you can't. it's not your fault; but when you don't even bother to formulate a vision for making the world good, then you are just living off the spoils of war without seeking and pursuing a better way.
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
I don't feel shame for what I've done in the past because I understand why I did what I did, and I've corrected my behavior. I understand that my motivations were driven my selfish values. You seem to not understand the futility of hanging on to guilt over the past.
If you're talking about culture, then yes, I am aware of that. I am also aware of the immorality that can exist in cultures. My morality and integrity are not held captive by culture.
I am not complicit in the wrongdoing of anyone but myself.
But I do have a vision for making the world good. State your truth when asked. But more importantly, live your truth, thereby teaching by example.
Be kind and honest. Affect everyone that way. Above all, don't try to convince everyone that they are guilty by association and therefore in need of forgiveness from an outside agent.
There is no point in atoning for sin when you can just accept forgiveness/salvation and submit to Holy Spirit in moving forward.
You seem to implicitly understand Christian principles without understanding they are Christian.
Hopefully you also realize it is everyone's task to make the world better for future generations, but we are obstructed from doing so for various reasons and so we fail to achieve what we should.
So if I steal your neighbor's jewelry and then spend the money at your business, you aren't profiting from your neighbor's loss?
So basically you honor Christian philosophy, except you believe that everyone has a separate truth and you want to reject Christ for some reason?
For this reason, I implore you to let go of your negativity against Christ and Christians. I'm not asserting that Christians are sinners with all sorts of faults, historically as well as in the present; just that you should be kind and honest by acknowledging that Christianity has a good foundation and that many of the good values you claim to enjoy came to you through generations of Christian perseverance and sacrifice.
You make the mistake of believing that my commitment to live according to evolved values is somehow inferior to your quest to be forgiven through submission to a holy spirit.
You seem to believe that unselfish virtues are meaningless and without effect unless done in the name of your borrowed philosophical doctrine. I would suggest that such a belief stems from a form of pride.
Being prohibited from taking over the government in a hostile manner to bring my will to bear on all is not a failure on my part. When you begin to think about it, you will come to realize that the means by which you attain something is also the means by which you unwittingly agree to lose it.
In this example, you are basically accusing me being an accomplice to theft because I accepted your money without first forcing you to submit to a polygraph test in order to find out whether or not you acquired it by legal means.
I don't think you understand what kind of a world you are advocating for here. So, I don't agree with you assessment that I am a thief by virtue of the fact that you stole something.
So basically you honor my unselfish values, except that you believe I have rejected your alleged savior and taken him out of the equation. I submit that it is your religious pride that causes you to see a distinction between unselfish living and unselfish living. Have you ever heard the saying: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet? I think that that applies here.
So now you are trying to convince me that if it weren't for Christianity, I would not know the difference between right and wrong. This is more pride on your part.
Not only that, but you are also trying to convince me that if I don't acknowledge what you believe to be the source of unselfishness, I am somehow expressing negativity.
Perhaps it is you who should let go of your negativity toward the evolving nature of others. I think that your doctrine of choice has caused you to view similar, but alternative, views as competition. That is simple pride.
Correction: I think you have stumbled onto a Christian philosophy, only you are not humble enough to acknowledge it is Christian.
Christian philosophy laid the foundation for the moral reason you engaged in to arrive at your values and ethics.
Who said anything about taking over government?
Hopefully you also realize it is everyone's task to make the world better for future generations, but we are obstructed from doing so for various reasons and so we fail to achieve what we should.
I am saying that your hands are not completely clean when you accept money derived from theft, murder, or whatever.
I am just making a case for accepting salvation from sin without asserting pridefully that your sins are less than others'.
I agree, which is why I see no reason for you to reject Christ besides your own pride of self, which is a sin.
Why don't you go really deep and examine what went into making the history of culture that provided you a foundation for your moral/ethical philosophy. If you truly believe that Christian culture played no role, I think you are delusional.
I think that if you deny that Christian culture is the source of your values you are being dishonest and/or ignorant
What I said was negative was you rejecting Christ even though your values suggest that you should appreciate Him deeply as a forerunner of values you uphold and cherish.
The reason I believe that everyone who knows Jesus should accept Him is that to do otherwise is simply pride/hate.
why would anyone reject Him except out of pride and hate/negativity toward Christians?
Yes, you should forgive and love them, even if you don't like them, but that is simply because it is the right thing to do just as it is the right thing to do with non-Christians.
So, according to you, Christians both discovered and own the patent on altruism, compassion, and empathy. That is a most conceited point of view even for a Christian.
I've already addressed your belief that, before Christians arrived on the scene, everyone had the mentality of heartless barbarians. It's a belief borne of self-serving conceit.
So, what is your point in calling us all failures for being obstructed from making the world better?
I've already addressed this point. You were trying to shift some blame for your thievery onto me for being a victim of your deception.
Concerning your previous example, my "sin" would indeed be less than yours (actually it's nonexistent) since you were both the thief and the deceiver.
What would you really think of an authority who came to your house and arrested you for selling something at your garage sale to someone who had stolen some money earlier that week? Doesn't sound at all fair when someone puts it to you in real-life terms, does it?
There you go again denigrating my altruism because I removed the centerpiece of your belief from the equation. Did you give any thought to what "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" means?
If you truly believe that, without Christianity, no one would know right from wrong, you are delusional. Pride in your savior is causing you to selfishly withhold honorable attributes from non Christians. The truth is that some of us don't need an excuse to be kind. We do so because it feels good.
Yes, I've already addressed your belief that Christians both discovered and own the patent on altruism, compassion, and empathy--how it is a belief borne of self-serving conceit, which is both dishonest and ignorant.
You are simply reaffirming your prejudice against those who do not attribute their kindness, compassion, and empathy to Jesus.
I will continue to do good because it makes me feel good. And you will continue mindlessly judging me for it because that makes you feel good.
Why would you decide that the rejection of the centerpiece of your beliefs is due to hate? You sound like the product of programming. If Jesus was a good guy, then he and I have something in common, and I have no problem with that.
I just see human beings.
The fact that you are more interested in fighting against Christianity than acknowledging it, however, demonstrates that you lack humility and are more interested in denying Jesus than acknowledging Him.
Quote:The fact that you are more interested in fighting against Christianity than acknowledging it, however, demonstrates that you lack humility and are more interested in denying Jesus than acknowledging Him.
And here you are demonstrating the extent to which you have allowed your pride in your religion to blind you. Nowhere did I say, "Down with Christians, and to hell with Jesus."
Your hold the idea that before the birth of Christianity, no one knew the difference between right and wrong. And you interpret any criticism of that idea as an attack on Christians or Jesus. Somewhere along the line, you became so selfish that you would deny the inherent goodness in others in order to lay claim to what you insist is the only goodness in town and the only place to get it.
John 1:1-14 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
You are accusing me of pride in religion, but you are the one that seems uncomfortable with praising Jesus and acknowledging Christianity
Me too, kind of. Religion almost fucked me out of ever figuring this life out. And just about everyone else too.
It was foretold that eventually, evil would start to look like an Angel of Light. I didn't see how that was possible for a long time, but I do now. What better disguise for evil to take in order to deceive.
Greatest I am wrote:
So if it is all spiritual talk, allegory IOWs, there was no real A & E or talking serpent. Right?
We have no way of knowing what exactly was meant when these scriptures were written,
Quote:You can reject the rhetorical language of "God" or "gods" having expectations and insist that a good harvest is not a "reward" for good agricultural behavior; or that hunger is not a "punishment" for crop failure; but there is technically no reason those same words can't be applied to nature using a personified image of God or "gods" as they can to situations where one or more humans punish/reward each other for behaviors and outcomes.
I'm speaking to the belief that there is a post-life reward granted by the god for those who live up to its expectations.
How does my effort to live a good life mean that I don't see all the problems of the world?
