5
   

Would only an evil god blame his own creations for the taint therein -- of his poor craftsmanship?

 
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Sep, 2019 04:59 pm
@livinglava,
Sorry. I started to read your reply but recognized that you did not get it.

I am talking logos and you are talking mythos and the two do not mix.

You stick to believing in real talking serpents and donkeys, mythos, and I will stick to logic and reason and will not go into intellectual and moral dissonance as you have.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Sep, 2019 02:42 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Sorry. I started to read your reply but recognized that you did not get it.

I am talking logos and you are talking mythos and the two do not mix.

You stick to believing in real talking serpents and donkeys, mythos, and I will stick to logic and reason and will not go into intellectual and moral dissonance as you have.

Does that mean you consider the 'intellectual and moral dissonance' you attribute to me 'sin?'

If so, and you accept sin as an inevitability, then why would you judge me by avoiding discussion? To spare me from the misery of being subject to your POV?
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Sep, 2019 09:34 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Sorry. I started to read your reply but recognized that you did not get it.

I am talking logos and you are talking mythos and the two do not mix.

You stick to believing in real talking serpents and donkeys, mythos, and I will stick to logic and reason and will not go into intellectual and moral dissonance as you have.

Does that mean you consider the 'intellectual and moral dissonance' you attribute to me 'sin?'

If so, and you accept sin as an inevitability, then why would you judge me by avoiding discussion? To spare me from the misery of being subject to your POV?


A sin.
You tell me.
Is it a sin to believe and preach that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god?

Would you like someone to teach your children such an immoral lesson?

Who is avoiding a discussion. Not I.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 06:58 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

You tell me.
Is it a sin to believe and preach that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god?

Yes, it is a sin to formulate a negative image of God in order to react against God instead of orient positively toward God as a loving Father.

Obviously there is negativity in the creation, but to allow it to turn us against God is falling to its temptation.

God grant us the serenity to accept the things we can't change, change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

If we deem God evil and orient against Him, then we can hardly have faith in Him to guide us into good decisions and good actions.

So if you recognize that the capacity for good exists in the creation, and you don't credit that capacity to God as the creator, then you are basically just asserting egotistically that we create our own capacity for goodness in defiance of an evil god who otherwise oppresses and abuses us.

That would put us in a state of radical enmity and self-righteousness vis-a-vis God whom we would then deem evil, as you seem to. This is like Adam & Eve accepting enmity from God through original sin and then falling so completely to their own pride that they maintain oppositional attitudes and never come to seek reconciliation with their heavenly father.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 11:08 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

You tell me.
Is it a sin to believe and preach that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god?

Yes, it is a sin to formulate a negative image of God in order to react against God instead of orient positively toward God as a loving Father.


So the biblical writers were sinners.

I agree.

Next time answer properly and honestly, if that is in you, you pathetic genocidal god loving piece of human garbage.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 11:22 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

You tell me.
Is it a sin to believe and preach that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god?

Yes, it is a sin to formulate a negative image of God in order to react against God instead of orient positively toward God as a loving Father.


So the biblical writers were sinners.

I agree.

Next time answer properly and honestly, if that is in you, you pathetic genocidal god loving piece of human garbage.

You're not grasping the fullness of good and evil in the creation. Both bad and good happen, but good emerges from the bad. The story of Job has a happy ending, as does the flood of Noah. Jesus dies by crucifixion, but then resurrects to live eternally and become the king of heaven. These are stories of overcoming immense adversity to realize true blessings. To say that there is an evil God as the ultimate creator of it all foresakes the joy and bliss that emerges from the scourge.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 05:38 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

You tell me.
Is it a sin to believe and preach that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god?

Yes, it is a sin to formulate a negative image of God in order to react against God instead of orient positively toward God as a loving Father.


So the biblical writers were sinners.

I agree.

Next time answer properly and honestly, if that is in you, you pathetic genocidal god loving piece of human garbage.

You're not grasping the fullness of good and evil in the creation. Both bad and good happen, but good emerges from the bad. The story of Job has a happy ending, as does the flood of Noah. Jesus dies by crucifixion, but then resurrects to live eternally and become the king of heaven. These are stories of overcoming immense adversity to realize true blessings. To say that there is an evil God as the ultimate creator of it all foresakes the joy and bliss that emerges from the scourge.


Only a corrupted moral sense would think as you do.

If you do not get what I now put, have the couth to ignore me as I will never follow Satan the way you are doing.

On Jesus dying for you.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Regards
DL

livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2019 07:06 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

On Jesus dying for you.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Well, the alternative is to believe that suffering for your own sins is doing anyone any good. It's just your own pity party for the sake of your ego. Islam makes somewhat of a valid point about God being single and unified, but the Holy Trinity connects people with God in a way that goes beyond some misunderstandings that come with imagining God as an abstract entity/force. By dying for us, Jesus and His crucifixion connect us with God in a special way, as sinners who can rise above our untranscendable sinful nature by accepting forgiveness and admitting that we can't overcome sin. Without forgiveness, you could give up because you are never going to save yourself from sin. You will always go on making mistakes. Jesus helps us to get over ourselves and accept salvation as a work in progress, one that will never reach full fruition but which is good because God never gives up on us despite our inability to reach His level of perfection.

Everything you preach holds only negative spiritual value. It provides some food for thought, but if someone actually doubted the good news of Christ in favor of what you are saying, their hearts and minds could sink low and they could give up on their own hope of salvation and redemption from sin, or they could fall into denial for the sake of pretending they are better than they are, probably look at ridiculing others as scapegoats to make themselves feel better in comparison.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Sep, 2019 01:34 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


Well, the alternative is to believe that suffering for your own sins is doing anyone any good.

Everything you preach holds only negative spiritual value. It provides some food for thought, but if someone actually doubted the good news of Christ in favor of what you are saying,


To your first.
Yet your own bible says that that is your way to salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Samuel 15;22
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You would not teach your children the vile and immoral ideology of using a scapegoat yet here you are doing just that and making an immoral Jewish law breaker out of Jesus. Pathetic parent you are.

Regards
DL


livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Sep, 2019 05:30 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

To your first.
Yet your own bible says that that is your way to salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is saying that God is longsuffering toward us, waiting for us to confess and repent, rather than allow us to perish.

Quote:

You would not teach your children the vile and immoral ideology of using a scapegoat yet here you are doing just that and making an immoral Jewish law breaker out of Jesus. Pathetic parent you are.

The whole point of honoring Jesus' sacrifice is to stop scapegoating, as was the point of the story where God stops Jacob from sacrificing Isaac. The culture of sacrifice was pervasive in both times, and both stories teach that God wants to end blood sacrifice in favor of forgiveness/redemption.

Redemption does involve discipline, which involves suffering and personal sacrifice, but it is different from the false concept of judging sin and killing people/animals off to exclude them from providence.

Don't you see, the miracle of the fish and the loaves could have been perverted so that the story tells of sacrificing the multitudes so that the chosen people could enjoy the small amount of fish and loaves without others starving. Instead, the miracle was that the fish and the loaves were broken apart so that everyone could have some, and what they had was enough. The miracle was that each person sacrificed by taking less and thus there was enough for all and no need to sacrifice the have-nots to benefit the haves.

Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2019 08:09 pm
@livinglava,
"not willing that any should perish,"

You seem to think that cannot do his will. Is your faith rthat shallow?

As to your notion of Jesus ending scapegoating.

You would have to be seeing god say something like, ---- let's end sacrifice and scapegoating by having one last really big one. Murder my son.

Is your vision that poor?

Regards
DL



livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 05:37 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

"not willing that any should perish,"

You seem to think that cannot do his will. Is your faith rthat shallow?

God allows us limited free will. We cannot control our destiny, but we have influence. Every choice we make is met by nature, and natural consequences alter the outcomes of our choices from what we initially may have intended.

Quote:
As to your notion of Jesus ending scapegoating.

You would have to be seeing god say something like, ---- let's end sacrifice and scapegoating by having one last really big one. Murder my son.

Think of it this way: God has been trying to teach us not to scapegoat for a long LONG time, but humans continue to choose evil instead of good/mercy/forgiveness.

So the hope is that by grasping that there is no greater sacrifice than Jesus as a "perfect lamb," that the scapegoaters/sacrificers will see that sacrificing scapegoats is not the path to salvation and heaven.

The Bible/God is thus not encouraging or validating scapegoating with the story of Christ's crucifixion but rather teaching us that the evil of scapegoat/sacrifice can neither achieve nor destroy goodness, which is ever reborn through Holy Spirit into new forms.

So instead of sacrificing scapegoats, we are supposed to sacrifice indulgences and overcome our own sin. Scapegoating is about maintaining indulgence by sacrificing a substitute/scapegoat to take your place.

By saying that Jesus paid for the sins of others with His death, we can have a reason to believe in the forgiveness of sinners. Otherwise, we might assume that sinners must be sacrificed for their sins, which would lead to denial on the part of those who were able to escape punishment; and hypocrisy on the part of those who passed judgment against others for sin without submitting to it themselves.

For this reason, judgement is replaced with correction/discipline; i.e. so that sinners can be redeemed and saved from sin instead of being judged for it. Sin is sacrificed instead of sinners. The goal is to redeem people from sin, not destroy them for it.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 12:50 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:




Overall, your apologetics above is garbage. You do not end a sacrifice system with a sacrifice. Only a fool would think so.

I will speak to this.

"God allows us limited free will."

But not to the most important part, that can have us sent to hell.

Belief in your prick of a god by his hardening, or not, of our hearts.

You might want to read your bible some time. You would likely drop the vile god you follow.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2019 03:31 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Overall, your apologetics above is garbage. You do not end a sacrifice system with a sacrifice. Only a fool would think so.

Who sacrifices human lives for sin except fools?

Wisdom impels us to avoid sin to protect life, not indulge in it and then attempt to shift blame to someone else. But who can claim to be so wise as to be immune from such foolishness? We are all sinners.

Quote:
I will speak to this.

"God allows us limited free will."

But not to the most important part, that can have us sent to hell.

You don't understand I am talking about reality, not some imaginary score card. We have limited free will, meaning our minds operate in a way that allows us to make choices, i.e. we are not purely instinctual animals, yet we don't have control over everything that influences the outcome of our choices, so that free will is limited. E.g. you can choose to drive carefully but still end up in a crash; because your choice to avoid crashes is limited in its ability to control the larger situation.

Getting in a car crash is hell. God doesn't stop you from going to that hell when you crash your car . . . except by spiritual deliverance, which you may note occurs on some level despite your suffering. In the same sense, we are saved from sin spiritually even when we are suffering its consequences on a physical/material level. Ours in an interesting existence.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Oct, 2019 11:19 am
@livinglava,
If you want to speak of reality, you are in the wrong section of the forum.

All the gods are man made.

I was dealing with the stupid and immoral Christian myth, so I guess we are not at all on the same topic.

End.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Oct, 2019 09:42 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

If you want to speak of reality, you are in the wrong section of the forum.

All the gods are man made.

I was dealing with the stupid and immoral Christian myth, so I guess we are not at all on the same topic.

I just see religion as a way of explaining reality. It is an ancient language of concepts that have become twisted to have subtly false meanings.

God is not 'man-made.' God is a personification of the fundamental power of creation throughout the universe. Religion is a way people have studied that power and attempted to explain it to others.

You can't complain that natural forces are unfair. They are what they are. If you are looking the wrong way and fall off a cliff, you can't blame gravity for punishing your failure to watch where you're going. It is just a natural consequence of the landscape and your own mistake. That's how it is with sin: natural consequences for misguided choices - explained in terms of God and His supporting cast, who are made in His image yet torn between good/evil, obedience/freedom, and confused as they attempt to find their way to clear conscience.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2019 08:56 am
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
All the gods are man made.


Right, right, mix rocks, add water, stir in sunlight and Poof! Here we are !

And you call Christianity silly
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2019 10:03 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

If you want to speak of reality, you are in the wrong section of the forum.

All the gods are man made.

I was dealing with the stupid and immoral Christian myth, so I guess we are not at all on the same topic.

I just see religion as a way of explaining reality. It is an ancient language of concepts that have become twisted to have subtly false meanings.

God is not 'man-made.' God is a personification of the fundamental power of creation throughout the universe. Religion is a way people have studied that power and attempted to explain it to others.

You can't complain that natural forces are unfair. They are what they are. If you are looking the wrong way and fall off a cliff, you can't blame gravity for punishing your failure to watch where you're going. It is just a natural consequence of the landscape and your own mistake. That's how it is with sin: natural consequences for misguided choices - explained in terms of God and His supporting cast, who are made in His image yet torn between good/evil, obedience/freedom, and confused as they attempt to find their way to clear conscience.


One cannot explain reality by literally believing in talking serpents and donkeys.

Those who view the bible as allegories might get the messages but not literalists.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2019 10:05 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
All the gods are man made.


Right, right, mix rocks, add water, stir in sunlight and Poof! Here we are !

And you call Christianity silly


No I do not.

I call Christianity an immoral religion as it posits that a genocidal prick can somehow be a good god and that homophobic and misogynous teachings are moral.

Regards
DL
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2019 10:21 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Right, right, mix rocks, add water, stir in sunlight and Poof! Here we are !

Yeah, and point to rocks, water, and sunlight, and poof-- god, and its expectations and rewards.
 

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