I think we could start by insisted on open books at the Pentagon, a separation of military from industrial, and a cultural change which would incorporate PDiddie's and Frank's ideas. For the record, I don't think we can expect a protest or series of protests to cause a revolution -- they are meant to be thought-provoking and of course to be erosive of power, not dramatic gestures. I think a steady drumbeat which says "We know who you are" can be quite effective.
Unfortunately Tartarin, you do not have an overriding majority on your side. The Bush Regime has succesfully used Hitlerian propaganda and tactics to move the fence sitters and those that stay close to the fence into evil.
Hope for seeing the end of wars is unrealistic - during our life time. Maybe there's something short of ending wars that we can all work towards, but I doubt that'll happen under this administration. c.i.
In his last State of the Union, Dwight Eisenhower warned of the dangers of the growth of a military-industrial complex . . . and no one seems to have heeded this very sound advice, coming from a Repubican, and a career military officer. This is something which has been neglected for a half-century, and the cost is staggering.
I didn't mean that your idea of a contiuous demonstration, Tartarin, was a bad one, only that it won't solve the core problem. I agree with you that the lies should not only not be accepted, but should be publicized as widely and as often as possible. Sadly, i don't believe these thoroughly bad men (because of excessive, recklessly pursued self-interst and because of majesterial arrogance and hubris) will ever be called to account for the damage they've done.
c.i., right now I wish we could go back to just moving away from war instead of the complete turn around this administration has given us. We have gone away from the Nuclear disaster clock being obsolete back to it being a few seconds from midnight.
It is unbelievable what the jerk-Bush has done to the world in a few short years. Fear is their main tool!
I am humming the theme music to Star Wars, and thinking about the rise of the Empire...
We have the best soldiers, and the biggest bombs, and we have no hesitation whatsoever to use them.
Yes, let's just quit hoping war is avoidable, and start planning where on the Mall we're going to put the Memorial to the Veterans of Bush's Wars.
Cicerone: "Hope for seeing the end of wars is unrealistic - during our life time. Maybe there's something short of ending wars that we can all work towards.."
I have a real problem with that. You don't reach a goal by setting a new, much lesser goal, claiming that's more "realistic." Maybe getting to the moon was unrealistic during quite a lot of lifetimes which ended in the '50's, but it became real because someone did it. On the shoulders of giants. We sell ourselves short by this "don't overchallenge people, they might back off" approach (something we see far too much of in our schools). You don't reach, you don't get.
An' our boys and girls in uniform could stop carrying battalion guidons, and start using Imperial eagles, with SPQA on 'em:
Senatus, Populi Qua America . . .
Non Sequitur.............
Tartar, You're a dreamer, and I'm a realist. Good luck on your goal. c.i.
Progress can be made. Kissinger no longer feels free to travel anywhere he wants, seeking to avoid the possibility (if slim) that he might end up in a non-American court. And it is arguable that much of the naughtyness the US does abroad must be done with an elaborate covertliness now whereas before the sixties, they didn't have to much bother.
But the pace of such progress is truly depressing. That 90% of the main information media is now held by five corporations isn't encouraging (and that looks to be soon getting worse under this crowd). That so many citizens down there are so eager to be spoonfed flag-happy pablum, forgetting why (if they really ever understood) the constitution designed governance to be checked at every turn is not encouraging. That electronic technology is on the cusp of potential incursions on privacy more pervasive (yet invisible) than anything known previously is not encouraging. That an administration has arisen in America which is so philosophically and socially regressive that it makes Nixon's crowd look like liberals is not encouraging.
Sorry, bad mood this morning.
Don't hold back, Boss, tell us how you really feel . . .
well said blatham
What i have found in political "discussions" on other forums (more like flame fights) is that ultimately everything comes to the dead point that each side believes the other to be brain washed and close minded, and each side effectively ignores the other by use of stereotypes. Realizing that at the very core of people both sides truly think they're right and both believe the same wrongs of each other is the only thing remaining that really makes me leave doubt in my mind about my stance.
That was a little unrelated anyways on what you said: Yes it's very discouraging to see the large corporations so easily allowed to break monopoly rules and peoples infamous constitutional rights taken away so easily. There have already been millions of protestors but my question would be: When will the american people say "enough is enough" and throw these people to the curb?
In my humble opinion alot of americans have essentially been conditioned to be apathetic, shown partly in the idea that the main political parties want low voter turn out. But moreso in just a general attitude that they dont really have control of the government and they just hope for the best after each voting and feel helpless to really change anything. I feel the way things are going eventually the line will be crossed and alot greater protests will arise in america, but when that is I dont know. I dont really think clinton is all that much better then bush, but when he was in office people could let themselves believe things were alright where as now it's more like the wrongs are in your face and nobody knows quite how to respond to it or what to do.
I'm sorry you're feelin' kinda down this morning Blatham, but it hasn't affected your creativity. I treasure "elaborate covertliness"! It reminds me of minuets, and has the swing and humor of Edith Sitwell.
I have been reading the latest posts,and I must respond. Yes,in boot camp I was "conditioned" to operate as part of a team,but you have to do that.In combat situations,the individual must be a "team player" if he is to survive. You have to be able to trust that your squadmates have your back,and they have to trust you to do the same.I never found boot camp to be "dehumanizing" in the least.
As to how I feel about the Iraqi people,I dont hate them at all.The ones I met were happy to see us,and were very cordial and helpful.When we needed a translator,we always had locals volunteering.When we ran low on supplies,they shared their food with us. I actually liked most of the Iraqis I met.
Yes,I did use a weapon in Iraq,but I am not going to dwell on it.Most of the time,I didnt need it.I was a US Navy corpsman,a combat medic with the Marines.It wasnt my job to inflict wounds,my job was to patch wounds.I treated every injured person I found,irregardless of their nationality or status.
I cannot change the minds of some of you that the military is "evil",so I wont try.
But I will say this,it was the threat of using military force that caused the Russians to remove their ICBM's from Cuba during the missile crisis.
I agree,using the military is an admission of failure,but its a failure of diplomacy.
MM
Consider that everyone hates the police until they need them. I suppose the same can be said of the military. Particularly those who sit behind a computer and have never seen the inside of a barracks.
Now I will cover my head and wait for the bombs to fall.
This isn't new. Let me post one of Kiplings better known poems.
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
-- Rudyard Kipling
The ONLY people I've seen who like to cast aspersions on the rank and file soldier, sailor, airman or marine are either those who have had no first hand experience as such, or those who were slugs when they served.
Basic training isn't dehumanizing. Outside of the few drill sergeants with control or power issues, I'd characterize it more as "de-ego-tizing". There is a necessary stripping away of self-centered baggage, in order to make individuals into a team. This is a temporary process that everyone recovers from stronger for the experience, and its time tested.
