Antiwar protests.

Mysterman -- Welcome back and very glad to hear that you're mending. Sorry if what I said offended you, but perhaps the offense came not from what I actually said but from the interpretations others made of my statements. We have been in the grip of false patriotism here, a kind of patriotism which would put a higher value on American lives and political goals than the lives of others. I hold that all lives are equally valuable and that aggression, no matter which flag it is wrapped in, is wrong. We have leaders who were willing to put you in the wrong -- and to sacrifice your life for something they had never fought for in their lives. That, in the view of many here and around the world, was ignoble and indefensible.

A BOSTON GLOBE EDITORIAL

Clouds on Memorial Day


5/26/2003

AMERICA comes to this Memorial Day from a still-smoldering battlefield, which makes the flags, wreaths, and marching military more painfully relevant than they were in years when war seemed more like history. How safe the speeches from old soldiers had sounded on town greens and city parks when combat was frozen on a bronze plaque and dying was not a new grave.

At first the war in Iraq had seemed safe, too, unfolding on television like a well-scripted docudrama. But then the bodies came home, as they inevitably do: 158, according to the Defense Department. That's a relatively small number compared with other wars, but relativity does not accurately measure grief, which is never small.

Nothing can measure the grief of Iraqi citizens, either, or the confusion of orphans and the disorientation of up-ended postwar life that might feel like death no matter how much better off a country may be without a despot in the palace. And there is no quantifying the loss of a colleague in the press corps on assignment in Iraq.

All of that settles on the consciousness like the weekend's chilly weather as a person contemplates what is a fitting commemoration -- and wonders if the world can ever keep the peace.

There is certainly no peace in Iraq now, even though the war is officially over and declared a US military victory. But people in uniform and street clothes continue to die in a chaotic society rife with snipers, grenades, bombs, and misunderstanding. The wider war against terrorism also continues to explode, with suicide bombers in the news just about every day, and America's color-coded warning system has once again moved to scary orange, the second-highest terror alert.

The country has been fighting this war within its borders since September 2001, and every citizen has been enlisted to serve. So in a sense we are all veterans, although most of us have no clue what we're supposed to be doing to maintain vigilance while going about our normal activities.

When old soldiers gave their Memorial Day speeches, they talked about battlefields long silent and freedom secured -- not fear of crowds, the confiscation of nail clippers at the airport, or the government's trimming of constitutional rights in the name of security.

Americans come to this Memorial Day weighing what has been lost and gained in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in the United Nations, and in the daily business of living. Standing in the cemetery listening to taps, a person is clear about respect for the soldier, fallen or still serving. But the larger picture of the country's role in a complex, angry, needy world is not so clear.

Memorial Day
This Memorial day, let us mourn the countless VICTIMS of our treacherous GIs--the woman and children they have murdered en masse, the lands they have poisoned and destroyed, the untold misery they have sown in a dozen countries around the world.

Let us point an accusing finger at ALL LEVELS of our military and heap abuse on these profaners of life and decency!

"Thanks" to our troops!
Those who have been following the news will recognize "Nasariyah" from Mysteryman's post as the site of some particularly gruesome mass murders of civilians, many of them, children.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/



We have nothing to "thank" such ruthless butchers for.

He belongs behind bars along with the rest of these American Nazis.

Walter,
This was posted by Tartarin..."I'd like to say that I'm hoping that this US invasion of a sovereign nation will be a god-awful flop and mess."...Now,exactly how am I supposed to interpret that statement. It sure sounds like Tartarin is hoping for many US casualties.That is the only definition of "mess" that I can come up with. Maybe I am wrong,but I an figure no other way to read this statement.

Henrygreen,
Are you accusing US troops of conducting mass murders?
If that is the case,come right out and say it. I can gaurantee you and everyone else that US erops DID NOT murder civilians.We went out of our way to avoid civilian casualties. Yes,in war civilians die,but it was not intentional.I lost 2 men from my platoon because they could not return fire because civilians were in the line of fire.
If there are mass graves being found,they are from the previous regime,and not from or caused by or the result of US fire.

Walter,
the quote from Tartarin that I am refering to is from a post dated Wed,Mar 19 2003 at 0925.
It can be found on page 4 of this topic.

I don't take back a word of the statement you quote, and I think the invasion turned out to be a flop and mess. Frankly, I hoped for a political flop -- a clear signal about the horrors of aggression and imperialism. It was a flop, but the naked emperor and his minions have been presented as wearing armor by captive media.

Mysteryman, even our media -- and thankfully the more realistic and accurate media overseas -- showed the bad planning, the cruelties -- the inexcusable aspects of this invasion. Who you are, what you did or did not do, is a separate issue and can only be addressed by yourself as someone who took part in the invasion of Iraq. Incidentally, the reactions of many anti-war protesters would probably have been somewhat different -- and probably more anguished -- had the serving military been draftees...

I think you have a real point questioning the use of the phrase, "support the troops." Sometimes it has been difficult to keep in mind the humanity of the military personnel this administration used to achieve its goal while feeling strong disgust with the entire operation.

mysteryman

You, and a number of others, have made reference to the following quote from Tartarin,
...and then you (and others) make the following inference...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can figure no other way to read the Project for a New American Century neocon crowd (Wolfowitz, Perle, Frith, Rumsfeld, Cheney) when they bemoaned that their policies would be tough to sell "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor." Clearly, they are hoping for massive death death tolls of innocent Americans from an enemy attack.

I will not argue with anyone about the invasion being either neccessary or not.Everyone has their own opinion,and I cannot change anyones mind.
But,we were hearing reports from various news agencies about how people felt about it.Now,I must ask...Can any of you defend that college proffessor that called for American deaths? I believe the phrase reported was " a million Mogadishu's".
How can anyone defend or justify that?
Now,as for what actually happened,I can only tell you what my unit did and how we acted.
We did the job we were asked to do,we were well received by most of the Iraqi civilians,and we did everything possible to avoid civilian casualties,at the risk of our own lives.

I will agree,that ANY use of the military is a failure,but a failure of diplomacy.
As a member of this countries armed forces,I am proud of what we did in Iraq,I am proud of the men and women I served with,and I am glad that we won.
I will also say that IMHO,losing 2 fingers is a small price to pay to accomplish everything we were sent to do.
Now,I will not try to explain everything to you,because if you werent there it is not possible to,and if you were there,no explanation is needed.

Here is a story about the college professor that admitted to wanting to see American soldiers die,and his quote... He longed for "a million Mogadishus" for American soldiers in Iraq - a million incidents in which American soldiers are captured, murdered, mutilated and paraded through the streets. "The only true heroes are those who find ways that help defeat the U.S. military," de Genova elaborated. And to sporadic applause from an Ivy League college audience, he thundered, "If we really [believe] that this war is criminal ... then we have to believe in the victory of the Iraqi people and the defeat of the U.S. war machine."

Here is a link to the whole story...http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20030406

So I repeat,can any of the people that protested the war justify this?
And,why do you think that the troops in the field wont see or hear about it?

Blatham -- You make a really good point there. There are documents around which would make many who lost friends, family, and pieces of themselves in that invasion quite sick.

There is a deep chasm between the active military -- "the men and women on the ground" -- and those who set the ground rules (and who, themselves, have never served). In the same way, there is an enormous distance between someone like myself who believes trained loyalty is a contradiction in terms, and someone who has accepted that training. I don't say that disparagingly, believe me, but it's very hard to discuss the use of the military or the validity of an invasion with people who have not only been personally involved but have been trained "not to question why... do or die." So we, the anguished and/or supportive civilians, are stymied by the naivete of the soldier. Carefully installed and nourished naivete. We either have to step around it or challenge it -- and neither is satisfactory. The value of the soldier to the military establishment can be measured, painfully, in the quality of the long-term medical care, the pay, his distance from the top in an extremely top-heavy department, the ease with which his life (not theirs) is put on the line for purely internal political reasons.

We celebrate Memorial Day to make ourselves feel better and, ultimately, to justify throwing these men's and women's kids into the next huge geopolitical meat grinder. Wave the flag.

de genova was exactly on target.

Our troops should be put before war crimes trials beside the Nazi leaders they blindly followed.

I'm glad mysterman is "proud" of the children blinded and disfigured by the United states--the 400,000 children facing imminent death by malnutrition as a result of his patriotic efforts.

Frankly, a bullet is too good for such a person.

Tartarin,

I mean no disrespect,but you are showing ignorance in how the military actually functions.
We are trained to work as a team,but we are not trained or expected to blindly follow orders. Every member of the armed forces is expected to follow the LAWFUL orders of superiors,but we are also trained to ignore or question any order we think is unlawful.
The naivete that you speak of really does not exist. Every member of our armed forces today is there because we CHOSE to be,we all went into it with our eyes open. Nobody is naive asto what the military is,or what it consists of,or what is expected.
Most of the people in the military joined due to a sense of duty,and a belief that this country must be defended.I am not going to try to convince you that is so,because I dont think I can.Judging by your writings alone,you seem to have the belief that members of our armed forces are nothing but robots,with no ability to think for themselves.
I assure you,nothing is further from the truth.

mysteryman, Technically, what you say is true, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that most in the military will never question the orders of their commanders. If you do not follow orders on the battlefield, the commander can have you shot on the spot. c.i.

No CI,a battlefield commander cannot have you "shot on the spot"
He can have you arrested however.
There are many instances of soldiers in the field ignoring orders from superiors,usually when those orders were either reckless,dangerous,or just plain wrong.

Henry,
Why do you have such a hatred of the military?
First of all,there were no war crimes committed by the US in Iraq.
I suggest you actually read the appropriate parts of the Geneva convention and find out what actually constitutes war crimes. I have made it easy for you,just go to this link...http://www.survivorsrightsinternational.org/definitions/war_crimes.mv

Please don't say stuff like that. You can state your hatred for the military without resorting to such lows.

These have been taken up in considerable detail by a number of legal scholars. The violations of Geneva Convention are legion. Belgium went to the extent of filing an official war crimes indictment against the Nazi Tommy Franks on just such basis.

A pity you don't follow the news.

I have refrained from much of the political debate online for this reason: Violent rhetoric.

Violent rhetoric can hardly be compared with violent actions which have caused thousands of innocent people to be murdered--most recently, in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Enough whitewashing.