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Should Women Fight in Combat?

 
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 05:22 pm
For an example of the standards that males and females are held to in the US Army and why many men in the sevice think that women should NOT be in combat roles, go to the following site:

http://www.arng.army.mil/tools/APFT/APFT.asp

It is a score calculator for the Army's PFT (Physical Fitness Test)

The minimum score for each area is 60 out of 100.

Lets take for instance a 20 year old man and woman in identical physical shape who take the test.

Both do 60 sit ups (In the 2 minute time limit), 40 push ups (In the 2 minute time limit), and make the 2 mile run in 16 minutes.

Lets see what their scores are and who passes...

The man fails miserably in all but one category with 185 points after failing to meet the MINIMUM of 53 sit ups, 42 push ups and a 15:49 run for a male soldier.

The female soldier scores a crushing 262 points (And probably a great note in her file for being so physically fit). The scores on your PFT are used to decide promotions in some fields, so you can see where this could be a 'sore spot'.

She nearly maxes out 2 categories, the push ups with 97 out of 100 and a 94/100 on her run and score respectably in the sit up category.

Her MINIMUM standards to pass is 53 sit ups, 19[/u] push ups and 18:49 in the 2 mile run.

Play with the thing a bit and see if it doesn't anger you just a bit as it does the men who are held to much higher standards.

Long ago in an Army far, far away, I served in a unit that allowed females...
We were considered a combat unit, but were stationed far enough back that we were allowed to field females. We discovered something that the most ignorant caveman knew from his youngest days and our officers didn't .

Women do not have nearly the upper body strength of your average man

Now I know many of you are going to say "I know PLENTY of women who are stronger than men...etc"

All I can tell you is that the AVERAGE man in the military is MUCH stronger than the AVERAGE woman in the military. Keep in mind, most soldiers are in good athletic condition because they do PT (Physical Training) almost every day. These arent your average 'couch potatos' they are (for the most part) young people in peak physical condition.

The women are weaker in all categories.

That's not sexist... just biology.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 06:35 pm
Hence the "if they want to AND they are able". Women in general do not have the strength of men, but some women do. And if one can and wants to, why shouldn't she?
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ConstitutionalGirl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 06:50 pm
What about Mutan Women?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 07:33 pm
I give up. What is a Mutan Woman? Is that like Mutan Rouge?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 07:36 pm
After reading Fedral's post on the minimums required by each gender, I think the real question here is should the status quo continue indefinitely or be replaced with a gender-blind physical minimum standard?

In the coming decades (actually fairly soon, I think) we can expect profound changes in the 21st century military. that, although there may continue to be a role for light infantry, will make personal physical strength much less central to combat success.

http://infoserve.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/techlib/access-control.pl/2001/010940.pdf
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roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 11:11 pm
Not only should they fight, but they should be subject to the draft as well. If women have equal rites they should have equal responsibility.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 11:16 pm
JustWonders wrote:
After reading Fedral's post on the minimums required by each gender, I think the real question here is should the status quo continue indefinitely or be replaced with a gender-blind physical minimum standard?

In the coming decades (actually fairly soon, I think) we can expect profound changes in the 21st century military. that, although there may continue to be a role for light infantry, will make personal physical strength much less central to combat success.

http://infoserve.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/techlib/access-control.pl/2001/010940.pdf


The military will still demand top physical condition for its troops. The equipment will get lighter but the conditioning will still be tough. You don't have a top-notch military and not demand hard work to keep it that way. Long road marches will still be part of the training and they will still have to carry the equipment that distance. So you know the average weight of a combat pack is between 100lbs and 150lbs. That includes 201 rounds for a full combat load of ammunition.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 12:33 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Nope.


Why?

Liar.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 04:57 am
JustWonders wrote:
After reading Fedral's post on the minimums required by each gender, I think the real question here is should the status quo continue indefinitely or be replaced with a gender-blind physical minimum standard?

In the coming decades (actually fairly soon, I think) we can expect profound changes in the 21st century military. that, although there may continue to be a role for light infantry, will make personal physical strength much less central to combat success.

http://infoserve.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/techlib/access-control.pl/2001/010940.pdf


I'm in favor of gender-blind minimum standards. Those standards could be adjusted as technology dictates.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 07:33 am
An alternate view re women in combat is here:
http://coelacanth.aug.com/captbarb/
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 08:01 am
Soviet women were fighting in almost any capacity during WW2. Tough as nails and respected by all.
stan.
....................
Because Lyudmila was a hero, less than a month after receiving her wound, she was pulled from combat. She was sent to Canada and the United States. She became the first Soviet citizen to be received by a U.S. President.
.
Woodie Guthrie wrote a song about her.
.
http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/pavlichenk.htm
.
By 1943 some 800 thousand female volunteers were serving in the Soviet armed forces. There were also women in combat as tank drivers, sappers, and machine gunners.
.
It was during WWII that women became the majority among physicians in the USSR.
.
http://salc.wsu.edu/Fair_S02/FS12/women/Womens%20role.html
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 08:01 am
Foxfyre, the WWII section of your posted website on women in the military leaves the impression that women served only as auxiliaries and nurses, they did much more. In the 1990's I knew an elderly women who lived in northeastern Connecticut who served in a combat role. She was a pilot and in WWII was an advanced aerial combat trainer for fighter piolets in Britain for the US Army Air Corps. Once new US piolets arrived in Britain she put them through advanced aerial maneuvers to sharpen their skills before they went into combat. In affect she took them up and put them through several mock dogfights. Because she was in a combat zone her plane was armed. Although in her 80's she was still a character, playing in golf tournaments, running road races, and serveral people I knew claimed she could still drink most men "under the table" but she made no such claim herself.



edited for spelling
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2005 11:18 pm
The initiative to put the fate of women in combat in the hands of Congress was defeated on a bipartisan vote this past week. My own Congressional representative, Heather Wilson (R), led the pro-women-in-combat side of the debate. The following article is definitely on the pro-women-in-combat side, but Cathy Young seems to support the side that says standards should not be lowered for the women.

Should women fight wars?
By Cathy Young | May 30, 2005

AFTER THE Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, there were predictions that the war on terror would signal a return to more traditional gender roles, with manly men assuming their place as women's protectors in a dangerous world. But in fact, like many earlier wars, the military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have expanded women's role in America's armed forces.

The recent quiet defeat of an attempt by some congressional Republicans to curb women's service in combat zones shows the widespread new acceptance of women warriors in American culture. Yet the debate over women at war remains complex and rife with contradictions.

Technically, women in the US armed forces are barred from ground combat. A 1994 Pentagon policy prohibits them from serving in noncombat roles in Army combat units -- such as infantry, artillery, and armor units -- smaller than brigades. Last year, however, the Army started allowing women to serve in combat support units. Representative Duncan Hunter, Republican of California and chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, attached a provision to a military spending authorization bill that would have forbidden the Army to expand women's role in combat zones without congressional approval and would have codified into federal law the policy barring women from small combat units.

The proposed legislation was killed by combined opposition from the Pentagon, the Department of Defense, and members of Congress who argued that the provision would hinder the military's decision-making on the battlefield and send a demoralizing ''we don't want you here" message to military women. The Republican opposition was led by Heather Wilson of New Mexico, the first female armed forces veteran to serve in Congress.

This is not sitting well with some conservatives. ''Allowing women to get shot to death or blown up or mutilated and disfigured in war is horrible. It's unnecessary. It's barbaric," lamented Tucker Carlson on his PBS show. Evidently, allowing men to get killed and mutilated is no big deal. Of the 1,647 US soldiers who have been killed in Iraq since the war began, 35 -- just over 2 percent -- have been women.

The notion that women deserve special protection from violence is not just a male plot to keep women down, as many feminists charge; it is also an expression of sincere concern for women's well-being. But such chivalry is ultimately infantilizing. On the flip side, no society dedicated to the principle of fair play can demand that men treat women as equals in all other walks of life, and then tell men their lives are more expendable.

Ironically, in recent years feminists have done their share of promoting the idea that violence against women deserves special attention. Some conservative opponents of women's new roles in the military have seized on this feminist rhetoric: Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, said that putting women into combat zones amounts to ''saying that violence against women is OK."

Champions of women in the military need to face up to other contradictions as well. For one, they tend to discuss the issue solely in terms of equal opportunity for women, without noting that currently men have the unequal obligation to register for the draft. What's more, women's relative disadvantage in upper-body strength is a real obstacle to their service in ground combat units; if integrating women comes at the cost of lowering performance standards and requiring more personnel to carry out arduous, demanding tasks, such faux equality will serve no one. Unfortunately, the politically correct taboo on these problems often makes it difficult to gauge women's performance in the military.

The eagerness to celebrate the prowess of women warriors was undoubtedly one of the reasons the media bought into the vastly exaggerated tale of Jessica Lynch's heroics during her capture by Iraqi troops in 2003. Opponents of women in the military, on the other hand, were eager to use Lynch's story to write off the female warrior as a feminist myth. Some women serving in Iraq have proven their effectiveness in combat -- such as Army Airborne Captain Kellie McCoy, who led a patrol out of an ambush in Fallujah in 2003 and was awarded a Bronze Star with a combat ''V" for valor.

When it comes to serving their country in a time of war, women should be truly treated as equal. Gender should not be an arbitrary barrier but it also shouldn't be a special exemption -- whether from service obligations, from the risk of violence, or from equal standards of performance and effectiveness.

Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine. Her column appears regularly in the Globe.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/30/should_women_fight_wars/
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2005 11:36 pm
I think both women and men should be barred from combat world wide.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 08:50 am
Well while not unsympathetic to the sentiment, Blue, would you suggest that we disband our armed forces and officially become a conscientious objector nation?
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ConstitutionalGirl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 04:04 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I think both women and men should be barred from combat world wide.
And Monkeys like you will replace them. Laughing
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 04:37 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well while not unsympathetic to the sentiment, Blue, would you suggest that we disband our armed forces and officially become a conscientious objector nation?


please note the world wide ban part of the post skeezix.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 04:40 pm
ConstitutionalGirl wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I think both women and men should be barred from combat world wide.
And Monkeys like you will replace them. Laughing


I notice earlier you suggested that women's jobs in the military should be to service the soldiers. May I assume then that you have a thing for monkeys? Is your idea of a dream date going out for bananas and then flinging your poo at passersby? Because it would certainly explain a lot about the quality of your posts. :wink:
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ConstitutionalGirl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 07:10 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
ConstitutionalGirl wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I think both women and men should be barred from combat world wide.
And Monkeys like you will replace them. Laughing


I notice earlier you suggested that women's jobs in the military should be to service the soldiers. May I assume then that you have a thing for monkeys? Is your idea of a dream date going out for bananas and then flinging your poo at passersby? Because it would certainly explain a lot about the quality of your posts. :wink:
Flings poop at blueveinedthrobber.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 07:19 pm
ConstitutionalGirl wrote:
Women should only be in the Military to give men pleasure.

After careful consideration of your view, I certainly can find nothing wrong with this very astute recommendation. You really have come up with an astonishingly good idea here. You're a very advanced thinker.
0 Replies
 
 

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