joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 01:28 pm
Well, this is odd. I stop in on one of my rare visits to the Religion Forum, and I see this thread back near the top of the list.

That is all. Carry on.
SanFranciscan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 08:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
Joe, you may disagree with Koran and Believe in Bible as much as you want.
I may believe in Whatever the book I will choose to read and think that the rest is wrong and consider myself whoever I am.
The problem here is not that the Rev. thought that Koran was filled with false information and Bible was superior in it's teachings. I think it is wrong that he decided to put up that sign, knowing that some people will read and their feelings will get hurt.
I am a meat eater. But I don't go around wearing the shirt "All Vegetarians are stupid"
I don't go hanging sings that judge other people.
I think that it would be bettet to put up something Positive up there About Bible and spend that energy on something positive instead.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 08:49 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Well, this is odd. I stop in on one of my rare visits to the Religion Forum, and I see this thread back near the top of the list.

That is all. Carry on.

Laughing
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 09:17 pm
It's perhaps no surprise that Rutherford county, where pastor Lovelace's church is based, went for John McCain by 65% to 34% - which was pretty much the same as the 2004 results.
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 09:27 pm
@nimh,
What is your point, nimh? Why is it not a surprise? Or are you just flush with stats and eager to disseminate?
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 11:23 pm
@JPB,
Pssst...Joe posted that back in February of 2006.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 05:40 am
@Merry Andrew,
Merry Andrew wrote:

Pssst...Joe posted that back in February of 2006.
I dont think it necessary to "flush" the Koran, when any intelligent reader can spot numerous errors and mistakes making it worthless apart from social anthropology. It is a re writing of the Jewish Talmud to serve the needs of a rapidly expanding Islamic empire. There is no evidence Mohammed actually existed let alone received the "perfect and final" word of God.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 06:31 am
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:

Why is it not a surprise?

Why is it not a surprise that a community where this kind of bigotry was demonstrated massively went for McCain over Obama? That's a rhetorical question, right?
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 07:25 am
@nimh,
There are other reasons that Christians would choose McCain over Obama. He is pro-life. He was fiscally more conservative than Obama. Many Christians choice to vote came down to that rather than possible ties to Islam. Religious preference was the least of my worries - to be honest with you I don't trust any of the politicians, whether conservative or liberal to do what is best for the people...I continue to hope but I will believe it when I see it.

As far as flushing the Koran. Of course as a Christian I do not believe it, but I do believe in the right for Muslims to have their Koran. It is our right here in the United States to worship as we feel led. I would stand up for their right to have and read the Koran as strongly as I stand up for my right to believe in the Bible - no matter what people think about it. I am thankful for that.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 07:58 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Why is it not a surprise?

Why is it not a surprise that a community where this kind of bigotry was demonstrated massively went for McCain over Obama? That's a rhetorical question, right?

Not a rhetorical question at all. It appears as if you are attributing to the community the bigotry expressed by an individual in the community. You are painting with a broad brush, which is really a bad idea.

Adopting that line of thinking, one might just as easily conclude the radical racist fanaticism of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright must be attributed to all members of his community -- and it's no surprise at all that those radical racists voted for Obama, is it?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 09:16 am
@Merry Andrew,
And that was after a thread hiatus from May 2005.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 09:33 am
@SanFranciscan,
SanFranciscan wrote:

Joe, you may disagree with Koran and Believe in Bible as much as you want.

Well, thanks, I guess.

SanFranciscan wrote:
The problem here is not that the Rev. thought that Koran was filled with false information and Bible was superior in it's teachings. I think it is wrong that he decided to put up that sign, knowing that some people will read and their feelings will get hurt.

Wrong? In what way? Was it a violation of biblical teachings to post that sign?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 09:49 am
@SanFranciscan,
SanFranciscan wrote:
The problem here is not that the Rev. thought that Koran was filled with false information and Bible was superior in it's teachings. I think it is wrong that he decided to put up that sign, knowing that some people will read and their feelings will get hurt.

So what? If the Koran -- or the Bible for that matter -- is a pile of fairytales, propaganda, and humbug, then that's what it is. It doesn't matter if this hurts the feelings of Muslims (in the case of the Koran), or Christians and Jews (in the case of the Bible). Reality is whatever it is. None of us is entitled to a reality that doesn't hurt our feelings.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 11:13 am
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:

Not a rhetorical question at all. It appears as if you are attributing to the community the bigotry expressed by an individual in the community. You are painting with a broad brush, which is really a bad idea.

Adopting that line of thinking, one might just as easily conclude the radical racist fanaticism of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright must be attributed to all members of his community -- and it's no surprise at all that those radical racists voted for Obama, is it?

Yes, I suppose that if one were to believe that the views of Rev. Wright are widely spread in [community of choice], then it's not surprising at all that the [community of choice] massively voted for Obama. Not because Obama agrees with Wright, but because those who agree with Wright would definitely not vote for McCain.

Same here. Of course McCain is no bigot, and nor are most of his voters. But bigots will definitely have voted for McCain rather than Obama. (White bigots, anyway.) So that's your question answered.

Now re your first point, is the Reverend a representative of his community in respect of the views he espoused? You're right, it's never good to paint with a broad brush. And not living there, I have no way to know for sure. But do you think he isn't? Do you think that rural, white, conservative Christian heartland constituencies who tend to vote 2:1 for Republican candidates, as this county is, would largely dissent from the Reverend's views?

I have no way to know for sure, no, but no, I dont think so. I'm guessing it's not coincidental that someone who had just recently moved into the county was the one complaining. I think there are many people with the Reverend's views, period. And yes, to me the election results reinforce that impression.

Not so much that this county voted for McCain by 2:1; as Mismi pointed out, there can be many reasons why a community veers right. But while equally conservative-voting counties across the country, including much of the non-Appalachian parts of North Carolina, did show a significant shift of votes toward Obama, the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks showed no such shift at all or even moved to McCain. Rutherford county, in the Appalachian foothills, was one of them. What would your first few random guesses be why this was so?
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 01:56 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Same here. Of course McCain is no bigot, and nor are most of his voters. But bigots will definitely have voted for McCain rather than Obama. (White bigots, anyway.) So that's your question answered.

Huh? I'm not sure you did answer my question. But are you saying the citizens of Rutherford County, North Carolina, are bigots (white bigots, anyway), and therefore it's no surprise they voted for McCain, or are you saying they voted for McCain, therefore that reinforces your belief they are bigots? Or are you ready to take a step back and make the correct statement that the fact that because a church leader in a community holds a certain view, it does not necessarily follow that the entire community (or even a majority of the community) holds that view?

Quote:
Now re your first point, is the Reverend a representative of his community in respect of the views he espoused? You're right, it's never good to paint with a broad brush. And not living there, I have no way to know for sure. But do you think he isn't? Do you think that rural, white, conservative Christian heartland constituencies who tend to vote 2:1 for Republican candidates, as this county is, would largely dissent from the Reverend's views?

I have no way of knowing if they follow the Reverend's beliefs or not, but then I wasn't the one painting with the large brush (although I'm sure I have done so on occasion). I think it's very likely they are conservatives, and voted for McCain for that reason, not because they think the Koran should be flushed down the drain. (You might be surprised to learn that many conservatives do not hold that particular viewpoint.)

Quote:
I have no way to know for sure, no, but no, I dont think so. I'm guessing it's not coincidental that someone who had just recently moved into the county was the one complaining. I think there are many people with the Reverend's views, period. And yes, to me the election results reinforce that impression.

Did you really rush to conclude that the person interviewed (the outsider) was the only person complaining? Do you not find it surprising that the AP reporter did not quote from even one of the many long-time residents who support Rev. Lovelace's views?

Quote:
Not so much that this county voted for McCain by 2:1; as Mismi pointed out, there can be many reasons why a community veers right. But while equally conservative-voting counties across the country, including much of the non-Appalachian parts of North Carolina, did show a significant shift of votes toward Obama, the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks showed no such shift at all or even moved to McCain. Rutherford county, in the Appalachian foothills, was one of them. What would your first few random guesses be why this was so?

I can surmise that one of your first few random guesses is because Rutherford County, NC, and the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks, are loaded with white, hillbilly bigots who think the Koran should be flushed.

That's fine. They likely think Holland is loaded with short painters with their fingers stuck in dikes.
SanFranciscan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2008 01:12 am
@joefromchicago,
It is called common courtesy to other fellow American's feelings. I am having a huge problem behind the reasoning of that Church Leader who thought one day "Let's put that sign up there"
Don't Church Goers and Church Leaders have anything better to do than spread Hatred? Why can't they post something positive, inspiring instead of negative, insulting message up there?
And yes, As far as I know Bible does not teach to Flush anything down the toilet.
Quite the opposite I believe.
Love your neighbor as yourself, or, in the original Hebrew: Ve-ahavta le-reiacha kamocha (Leviticus 19:18) Love your neighbor as yourself, or, in the original Hebrew: Ve-ahavta le-reiacha kamocha (Leviticus 19:18)
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

Do you still insist it did not go against the teachings of Bible?
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2008 05:50 am
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:
Huh? I'm not sure you did answer my question.

The question I answered was the one I quoted:

"Adopting that line of thinking, one might just as easily conclude the radical racist fanaticism of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright must be attributed to all members of his community -- and it's no surprise at all that those radical racists voted for Obama, is it?"

Ticomaya wrote:
I can surmise that one of your first few random guesses is because Rutherford County, NC, and the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks, are loaded with white, hillbilly bigots who think the Koran should be flushed.

That's fine. They likely think Holland is loaded with short painters with their fingers stuck in dikes.

I at least tried answering your questions, however unsatisfactory my attempt may have been to you. Why didn't you attempt an answer of mine? This one:

"But while equally conservative-voting counties across the country, including much of the non-Appalachian parts of North Carolina, did show a significant shift of votes toward Obama, the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks showed no such shift at all or even moved to McCain. [..] What would your first few random guesses be why this was so?"

I realise that any suggestion that bigotry may have been at work to a significant extent among this or that group of voters opting for McCain is politically incorrect to conservative standards, and provokes instant repudiation. And that this goes as well for those constituencies that actually moved against the tide to vote more for McCain than they'd even done for Bush, even as the rest of the country shifted in the direction of Obama - it's still considered outrageous to guess bigotry might be at work there. Hell, sometimes it seems that any suggestion that bigotry still exists to any significant extent in America seems to be distasteful to most conservatives here.

But when it comes to offering explanations what may have been at work among voters in the Appalachians and Ozarks (and possibly whites in the Deep South, I'd have to delve into state-by-state exit poll data for that), I haven't really seen any conservative here attempt an answer. These communities moved to McCain even as whites elsewhere - including equallly staunchly conservative white communities elsewhere - moved to Obama. What would your guesses of why be?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2008 09:17 am
@SanFranciscan,
SanFranciscan wrote:

It is called common courtesy to other fellow American's feelings. I am having a huge problem behind the reasoning of that Church Leader who thought one day "Let's put that sign up there"
Don't Church Goers and Church Leaders have anything better to do than spread Hatred? Why can't they post something positive, inspiring instead of negative, insulting message up there?

Common courtesy, as far as I can tell, is not a biblical commandment. God didn't enjoin the Israelites: "Thou shalt be courteous!"

SanFranciscan wrote:
And yes, As far as I know Bible does not teach to Flush anything down the toilet.
Quite the opposite I believe.
Love your neighbor as yourself, or, in the original Hebrew: Ve-ahavta le-reiacha kamocha (Leviticus 19:18) Love your neighbor as yourself, or, in the original Hebrew: Ve-ahavta le-reiacha kamocha (Leviticus 19:18)
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

Do you still insist it did not go against the teachings of Bible?

For every "love thy neighbor" in the bible, there are about eight instances of god either smiting unbelievers himself or else commanding or rewarding his people for smiting unbelievers. Certainly, a devout Christian could easily reconcile the injunction to love thy neighbor with the belief that his neighbor should be led from the path of unbelief, even by a discourteous act, in order to save his eternal soul.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2008 09:52 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I can surmise that one of your first few random guesses is because Rutherford County, NC, and the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks, are loaded with white, hillbilly bigots who think the Koran should be flushed.

That's fine. They likely think Holland is loaded with short painters with their fingers stuck in dikes.

I at least tried answering your questions, however unsatisfactory my attempt may have been to you.

Yes you did try to answer, and I could tell you were struggling mightily with it. I do appreciate your effort.

Quote:
Why didn't you attempt an answer of mine? This one:

"But while equally conservative-voting counties across the country, including much of the non-Appalachian parts of North Carolina, did show a significant shift of votes toward Obama, the white, rural counties of Appalachia and the Ozarks showed no such shift at all or even moved to McCain. [..] What would your first few random guesses be why this was so?"

I really don't see the utility of random guesses. Maybe everyone there gathers at Merle's Bar every Saturday and Merle gave a really good speech outlining the reasons why a McCain presidency would be preferable to an Obama presidency, and Merle is very well respected. Maybe the water consumed in the Appalachian mountains makes them predisposed to vote for the more experienced candidate. Maybe they like Veterans better than Community Organizers. Apparently you read the statistics and conclude they must all obviously agree with Rev. Lovelace that the Koran ought to be flushed. Do you read tea leaves as well?

Quote:
I realise that any suggestion that bigotry may have been at work to a significant extent among this or that group of voters opting for McCain is politically incorrect to conservative standards, and provokes instant repudiation. And that this goes as well for those constituencies that actually moved against the tide to vote more for McCain than they'd even done for Bush, even as the rest of the country shifted in the direction of Obama - it's still considered outrageous to guess bigotry might be at work there. Hell, sometimes it seems that any suggestion that bigotry still exists to any significant extent in America seems to be distasteful to most conservatives here.

Here again you demonstrate your narrow thinking. There is no question that bigotry may have been at work to an extent, even a significant one, among that group of voters -- or any group, for that matter -- who voted for McCain. It is just as likely -- even more so, if you can stomach reality -- that racism played a bigger role in the minds of those who voted for Obama ... for every one who voted for him because he was a black man did so because of his race. And if you want to take random guesses, I guess a huge percentage of his voters did just that. But that's hardly the point to be made here. The point I'm making is to identify the spurious nature of your conclusion. You would have been better off just acknowledging as much, and not offer up such a strained explanation of your reasoning. All it's done is outline your own personal bias against those who inhabit Appalacha and the Ozarks. And you have reinforced the notion held by many leftists that there is no good reason to have voted for McCain over Obama, and therefore the best explanation is all who voted for McCain did so because of their inherent racism.

Quote:
But when it comes to offering explanations what may have been at work among voters in the Appalachians and Ozarks (and possibly whites in the Deep South, I'd have to delve into state-by-state exit poll data for that), I haven't really seen any conservative here attempt an answer. These communities moved to McCain even as whites elsewhere - including equallly staunchly conservative white communities elsewhere - moved to Obama. What would your guesses of why be?

Well obviously they are all bigoted white men. What else could the possible reason be? Please check the exit poll data, and verify they all said they voted for McCain because he's a white man, and come back and report.

On the other hand, have you considered the voting patterns of the Evangelicals?
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:10 pm
I reckon they should flush the Bible as well
 

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