Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 05:36 pm
It is a quite common assumption on the part of religious fanatics that those who do not agree with them are angry. You flatter yourself--i don't know you, have never met you, and could not care whether you live or die. Above all else, you should not assume that i am angry when i express contempt. All that you can be certain of, is that i am contemptuous.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 07:41 pm
dlowan wrote:
Sorry is this is already posted - but I would have thought the minister's nasty behaviour was forbidden in the book which he presumably believes he lives by.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a pretty important bit of instruction from jesus, wasn't it?

How does that translate into "tolerate the theological errors of others?"

Remember, Jesus said: "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." In other words, we must eradicate sin in ourselves, at whatever cost. If that is "loving yourself," then surely loving your neighbor would involve a similar series of operations.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2005 09:04 pm
I agree with Joe's premise, as I take it, that you believe all that, you act it out.

I had a little trouble with that myself as a teen. No, I didn't really want to be a missionary. Enough about me..

Despite understanding of potential if not real Koran flushing or Bible blazing from some believer's point of view, I decry both of them re the actual books. Yes, I get it that Muslims revere the Koran in a somewhat different way they Christians revere the bible.

As a simple human, I sure wish people would quit trying to fix each other.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 01:06 am
joefromchicago wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Sorry is this is already posted - but I would have thought the minister's nasty behaviour was forbidden in the book which he presumably believes he lives by.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a pretty important bit of instruction from jesus, wasn't it?

How does that translate into "tolerate the theological errors of others?"

Remember, Jesus said: "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." In other words, we must eradicate sin in ourselves, at whatever cost. If that is "loving yourself," then surely loving your neighbor would involve a similar series of operations.


Starting to think Jesus had DID!!


But - he seems to be on about eradication of stuff in oneself - he doesn't say pluck your neighbour's eye out, or cut off his right hand!

In fact, he says leave 'em alone until you are perfect:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I think our pastor is still being unchristian. Hoist on his own petard. An own goal.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 07:56 am
Setanta wrote:
It is a quite common assumption on the part of religious fanatics that those who do not agree with them are angry. You flatter yourself--i don't know you, have never met you, and could not care whether you live or die. Above all else, you should not assume that i am angry when i express contempt. All that you can be certain of, is that i am contemptuous.
And I hope you realize that Joe Sixpack and I quite understand your contempt is not directed toward us but toward the religious excesses that fill our newspapers. We wouldn't have invited you to our barbecue if we had thought differently. By the way, we're sorry you missed the barbecue. But there will be others. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 11:28 am
If you mean a down-home pig pickin', sign me up.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2005 09:49 pm
Soon as I get to the dancing electrons.
0 Replies
 
Believer4Life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2005 10:35 pm
?
How do you know that the Bible is God word first off. I mean if a Muslim or a Jew told you that the Quran or Torah is God's word would you believe him/her? Probably not. So why should anyone believe that Bible is God's word?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2005 10:43 pm
I think the question is rather whether the pastor in the story believes it is, and therefore whether or not there is a biblical command that he has broken by putting up his nasty little sign.
0 Replies
 
holyrosary
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 03:45 pm
Hey joe, I have a CONTRIDICTION for you to look t for me:
Will jesus burn in hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [sura 4:158] near stationed with him [sura 3:45] worshiped by billions of christians yet Sura 21:98 says, that all who worshiped by men other then allah will burn in the eternal flame with all who worship them. CONTRIDICTION- jesus cant be in heaven and hell forever at the same time!
0 Replies
 
ali87
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 09:59 pm
holy_rosary wrote:
Hey joe, I have a CONTRIDICTION for you to look t for me:
Will jesus burn in hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [sura 4:158] near stationed with him [sura 3:45] worshiped by billions of christians yet Sura 21:98 says, that all who worshiped by men other then allah will burn in the eternal flame with all who worship them. CONTRIDICTION- jesus cant be in heaven and hell forever at the same time!




According to the Christian missionaries:

Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 21:98

The logic is clear, Jesus is not God [5:75], millions of Christians are worshiping Jesus today and even the Qur'an acknowledges this [5:119], therefore Jesus will be fuel for the Hell fire [21:98] together with the Christians. This clearly contradicts the verses on Jesus' special place near to Allah [Sura 3:45; 4:158 and others].

Rebuttal

What is logically clear is that the Christian missionaries have not shown any support for their statement that the verse 21:98 indeed refers to Jesus(P). The issues here are:

What does the verse 21:98 actually say?

Why should Jesus(P) go to hell-fire?

Grammatical Considerations & Tafsîr

Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come. [Qur'ân 21:98]

The word "mâ" translated as "what" in verse 21:98 is used to refer to things/objects and seldom would it refer to people. Otherwise, it would be "man" (i.e. who or whom). Thus Jesus is not referred to in that verse. This verse would rather refer to idols worshipped by the pagan Arabs who lived in the time of Prophet Muhammad. More details are available in the section Grammatical considerations & tafsîr.

Why Should Jesus Go To Hell-fire?

It is true that many Christians worship Jesus and that according to the Qur'ân [21:98] whoever worships any deity except God would be the firewood of hell. In this context, what will happen to Jesus? The Christian missionaries say rightfully that Jesus is highly esteemed in Islam:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; [Qur'ân 3:45]

For the sake of debate, the question would be: What was the mischief committed by Jesus for which he would deserve hell? Did he order the Christians to worship him? We, the Muslims, believe he did not:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. [Qur'ân 5:116-117]

And God Almighty also says:

On no soul doth Allah place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. [...] [Qur'ân 2:286]

and

No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning). [Qur'ân 17:15]

So, as shown in verses 5:116-117, Jesus will be confronted with those who worship him. After he washes his hands from the Christian polytheism, each one will be accountable for his own deeds because the messenger (Prophet Muhammad) has warned the Christians against their error and they refused to follow him and the consequences of not heeding to the advice (see verse 17:15).

Grammatical Considerations & Tafsîr

Coming back to the original issue, verse 21:98 (saying that what is worshipped besides God will be the firewood of hell) refers to things/objects and not to the people for obvious grammatical reasons. Moreover, as discussed above Jesus is innocent from the Christian worship and thus he cannot be accountable for the Christian misguidance after his ascension to the Heaven. Of course, Jesus is honoured by Islam and there is no contradiction between this fact and the Christian misguidance from which he is totally innocent (according to the Qur'ân too).

Some missionaries go further with this argument by quoting Sîrah concerning the revelation of verse 21:98. We have cross-checked the quotation from as-Sîrah an-Nabawiyyah by Ibn Hishâm which says:


Ibn Ishâq said:

The Apostle of God sat one day, so I have heard, with al-Walîd Ibn al-Mughîrah in the mosque, and an-Nadr Ibn al-Harith came and sat with them in the assembly where some of Quraysh were. So the Apostle spoke but an-Nadr interrupted him. Then the Apostle spoke to him until he silenced him. Then he read to him and to the others: "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell. You will come to it. If these had been gods they would not have come to it, but all will be in it everlastingly. There is wailing and there they will not hear".

Ibn Ishâq said:

Then the Apostle of God left and Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ as-Sahmî came and sat down. al-Walîd said to him: "By God, an-Nadr could not stand up to the (grand)son of cAbdul-Muttalib just now and Muhammad alleged that we and what we worship among these deities of ours [mâ nacbudu min 'âlihatinâ hâdhihî] are fuel for hell". Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ said: "If I had found him I would have refuted him. Ask Muhammad, "Is everything which is worshipped besides God in hell with those who worship it?' We worship the angels; the Jews worship cUzayr; and the Christians worship Jesus the Son of Mary." Al-Walîd and those with him in the assembly wondered at the words of cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ and saw that he had argued convincingly. When the Apostle of God(P) heard of the speech of Ibn al-Zibicrâ, he said: "Everyone who appreciates being worshipped to the exclusion of God will be with those who worship him. They worship only devils and whom they have ordered to be worshipped." So God Almighty revealed concerning that "Those who have received kindness from us in the past will be removed far from it and will not hear its sound and they abide eternally in their heart's desire", i.e., Jesus Son of Mary and cUzayr and those rabbis and monks who have lived in obedience to God, whom the erring people worship as lords beside God. And He revealed concerning their assertion that they worship angels and that they are the daughters of God, "And they say the Merciful has chosen a son, (exalted be He above this); nay, they are but honored slaves, they do not speak before He speaks, and they carry out His commands", as far as the words, "and he of them who says, I am God as well as He, that one we shall repay with Hell. Thus do they repay the sinful ones." [1]

In the quotation above, the pagans of Makkah understood that verse 21:98 concerned them specifically as well as their idols (see how they stress: "what we worship among these deities of ours"- in Arabic: mâ nacbudu min 'âlihatinâ hâdhihi). No mention of deified humans was understood. However, the question of cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ - even if it was out of the real scope of the verse - came as a relief for them especially after Prophet Muhammad had silenced Ibn an-Nadr one of their best orators. When the Prophet heard of Abdullâh's objection, he brought an answer to his specific question, i.e., what about the humans that are worshipped? The answer was: if and only if their being worshipped pleased them, then they will meet the same fate as their worshippers - Hell. This saves Jesus, Mary, the Angels and whatever pious people who were later worshipped against their own consent.

Moreover, many Qur'ânic commentaries such as those of al-Tabarî, al-Qurtubî and Ibn Kathîr mention this quotation of Sîrah concerning the following passage of Sûrat al-Zukhruf:

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)! And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. [Qur'ân 43:57-61]

Very interestingly, al-Qurtubî had the following to say in his tafsîr, while commenting on verse 43:57 :



Ibn cAbbâs said:

This verse refers to the argument between Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ and the Prophet of God concerning Jesus. The one who held the example [in the verse] is cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ while he was still a pagan. This took place when Quraysh reported to him that Muhammad recites: "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell." [21:98]. He said: "If I had attended him, I would have replied to him." They asked him: "What would you say?" I would say: "The Christ is worshipped by the Christians and the Jews worship cUzayr. Are they among the firewood of hell?" Then Quraysh wondered at his words and saw that he had argued convincingly and this is the meaning of yasiddûn [raise a clamour in ridicule]. So, God revealed: "Surely (as for) those for whom the good has already gone forth from Us, they shall be kept far off from it;" [21:101]

If Ibn al-Zibicrâ had pondered on verse 21:98, he wouldn't have objected to it because it makes mention of "what ye serve" and not "whom you serve" because the verse speaks about the idols and other things, and not about Jesus nor the angels even if they are worshipped.[2]

Two things stand out from this quotation:

Firstly, the grammatical considerations that we made in the beginning of this article according to which only inanimate things are included in verse 21:98. Al-Qurtubî stands by this opinion when commenting on verse 43:57 as well as verse 21:98.



The scholars say that Jesus, cUzayr and the angels are not meant by verse 21:98 because "mâ" [i.e., "what"] refers to inanimate things and not to people. If the verse pointed to them, it would use "man" [i.e., "who" or "whom"] instead.[3]

As-Sâbûnî in Mukhtasar Tafsîr Ibn Kathîr points out this argument too in the explanation of verse 43:58



Regarding His divine words: "This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people" means: they say so for the sake of argument while they know that their argument is not applicable to this verse since it refers to things only [i.e., in the Arabic language "mâ" is used to refer to things and God Almighty used "mâ" and not "man"] and so it is in His divine speech "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell." Moreover, this verse was addressed at Quraysh who were used to worship idols and they did not worship Jesus so that he could be included here. Therefore, their answer is no more than a fake argument in which they do not believe themselves.[4]

Secondly, it is implied that cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ, the one who opposed the Prophet about verse 21:98, became a Muslim. The reader may check entry number 4682 in al-Isâbah[5] by Ibn Hajar where we get the confirmation that Ibn al-Zibicrâ converted to Islam and praised the Prophet with his poetry. If he knew that there were a contradiction in the Qur'ân concerning Jesus and whether he would go to hell, would he believe in Muhammad and convert to Islam?

In conclusion, it can be said that there is no difference between the arguments of Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ when he was a pagan and the Christian missionaries of this day. The verse 21:98 does not refer to Jesus at all and neither does the Qur'ân say that Jesus would be going to hell. Everything points to the fact that the missionaries' argument is hollow and that they are contentious indeed!

This issue is also discussed as a logical fallacy committed by the Quraysh.

The reader would also notice that the best tafsîr of the Qur'ân is Qur'ân itself (notice how 21:98 is explained using 43:57-58), i.e., al-Qur'ân yufassiru bacduhu bacdan (different parts of the Qur'ân explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur'ân. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place. Such an exegesis involves the use of Context & Internal Relationships.

And Allah knows best!
0 Replies
 
Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 03:09 am
holy_rosary wrote:
Hey joe, I have a CONTRIDICTION for you to look t for me:
Will jesus burn in hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [sura 4:158] near stationed with him [sura 3:45] worshiped by billions of christians yet Sura 21:98 says, that all who worshiped by men other then allah will burn in the eternal flame with all who worship them. CONTRIDICTION- jesus cant be in heaven and hell forever at the same time!


How many times did you ask this same question? http://www.able2know.com/go/?a2kjump=http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/Internal/qi032.html

Also; look at this link, unlike Christians and Jews, Muslims are taught to respect all of the prophets: http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/did_not_die/jesus_did_not_die_02.php


Believer4Life: The original Torah and Gospel were both from God; but they both have been changed. That is why God vowed that the Quran will never be changed untill the Day of Judgement.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 06:21 am
And your proof for that horsie poop is?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 06:22 am
You jokers crack me up . . .


When "God" makes a vow, to whom or what does "He" swear--Mrs. God?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 06:43 am
Raul-7 wrote:
...The original Torah and Gospel were both from God; but they both have been changed. That is why God vowed that the Quran will never be changed untill the Day of Judgement.


Leaving aside Setanta's philosophical point about God swearing...on the bible? no..

Do me a favour Raul. Find out what was found in the roof space of the Great Mosque at Sana'a in Yemen.
0 Replies
 
PPatience
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 09:13 am
I think that this pastor is the one who should be flushed!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 09:14 am
To whom do you refer when you use the word pastor?

JoefromtheWindyCity? ! ? ! ?


Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . .


Ah me . . . that was precious . . .
0 Replies
 
ali87
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 06:02 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Raul-7 wrote:
...The original Torah and Gospel were both from God; but they both have been changed. That is why God vowed that the Quran will never be changed untill the Day of Judgement.


Leaving aside Setanta's philosophical point about God swearing...on the bible? no..

Do me a favour Raul. Find out what was found in the roof space of the Great Mosque at Sana'a in Yemen.



WHAT WAS FOUND? FILL ME IN ON THIS PLEASE
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 11:18 am
ali87 wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Raul-7 wrote:
...The original Torah and Gospel were both from God; but they both have been changed. That is why God vowed that the Quran will never be changed untill the Day of Judgement.


Leaving aside Setanta's philosophical point about God swearing...on the bible? no..

Do me a favour Raul. Find out what was found in the roof space of the Great Mosque at Sana'a in Yemen.



WHAT WAS FOUND? FILL ME IN ON THIS PLEASE


Ah, found the original thread. This was my replay also posted elsewhere

My initial reaction is two fold. First my suggestion was to Raul not Ali. Secondly I dont like being shouted at. But as you did use the word 'please', I will type out for your elucidation a couple of paragraphs from the Newstatesman magazine dated 10th Dec 2001.

Quote:
With no contemporary Muslim sources to refer to, a group of young historians working under the brilliant linguist Professor John Wansbrough at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) in the seventies developed new scholarly techniques, drawing heavily on earlier biblical scholarship. Following Wansbrough's lead, they decided to look at the Koran as a literary text, to compare it to other devotional writings of the period and to look at internal clues to its origin. They found that it owed much to Judaism, especially the Talmud, a collection of commentaries and interpretations of the Hebrew Bible. They concluded, tentatively, that in the form that survives, the Koran was compiled, if not written, decades after the time of Mohammed, probably by converts to Islam in the Middle East, who introduced elements from the religions previously dominant in the region. Drs PC and MC, also working at SOAS at the time, provided an even more devastating analysis by looking at the only surviving contemporary accounts of the Islamic invasion, written in Armenian, Greek, Aramaic and Syriac by Middle Eastern witnesses to the rise of Islam. They found that Islam, as represented by admittedly biased sources, was in essence a tribal conspiracy against the Byzantine and Persian empires with deep roots in Judaism, and that Arabs and Jews were allies in these conquering communities.

Apparent support for their conclusions came from finds made during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen, where labourers working in the roof discovered fragments of Korans that are among the oldest in existence. German scholars who studied the manuscripts discovered that some of the Koranic writing diverges from the authorised version, which by tradition is considered the pure, unadulterated word of God. What's more, some of the writing appears to have been INSCRIBED OVER EARLIER, "RUBBED-OUT" VERSIONS OF THE TEXT. This editing supports the belief of Wansbrough and his pupils that the Koran as we know it does not date from the time of Mohammed. AP, professor of Islamic history at the University of Victoria in Canada, and the author of a revisionist history of Islam published by Routledge, said: "The Sana'a manuscripts [are] part of the process of filling in the holes in our knowledge of what might have happened".


I have refered by initial only to certain people...I dont know why I should feel protective in this way...of course their work is in the academic domain.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:00 pm
Well I guess this pastor was just trying to be fair saying the Koran should be flushed since it's painfully obvious just through his words that he already flushed his bible down the toilet....
0 Replies
 
 

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