Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:00 am
N.C. pastor stands by sign saying Quran should be flushed

The Associated Press

FOREST CITY, N.C. -- A Baptist minister refuses to apologize for a church sign saying the Muslim holy book should be flushed.

"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said the Rev. Creighton Lovelace of Danieltown Baptist Church. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."

Seema Riley, a Muslim born in Pakistan and reared in New York, said she moved to Rutherford County, about 60 miles west of Charlotte, for the "small-town friendly" atmosphere.

The church sign reading, "The Koran needs to be flushed," angered her and made her feel threatened, she said.

"We need a certain degree of tolerance," Riley said. "That sign doesn't really reflect what I think this county is about."

The sign is an apparent reference to a recent Newsweek magazine article that said U.S. investigators found evidence that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay placed copies of Islam's holy book in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk.

The account has been blamed for protests in Afghanistan, where more than a dozen people died and scores were injured in rioting earlier this month, and demonstrations elsewhere in the Muslim world.

Lovelace said he expected the sign in front of his 55-member church to also stir anger in some people.

"If we stand for what is right and for God's word and for Christianity then the world is going to condemn us and so right away when I got a complaint I said, 'Well somebody's mad, somebody's offended, so we must be doing something right,'" Lovelace said.

Danieltown Baptist Church belongs to the Sandy Run Baptist Association. Each church in the association is autonomous, said the Rev. Jim Diehl, the group's director of missions.

"Each church can develop a stance on doctrinal issues and can develop its own stance on moral issues," he said.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 7 • Views: 9,940 • Replies: 139
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:18 am
<shaking head>
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:21 am
Quote:
"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said the Rev. Creighton Lovelace of Danieltown Baptist Church. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."


Upon reading this article, my first thought was that Rev. Lovelace was absolutely correct: if one believes that the bible is the inerrant word of God and that the worship of any other deity is idolatry, then it makes sense to conclude that the koran is wrong. And if the worship of false deities imperils one's soul, then it likewise makes sense to conclude that the sources of error should be eliminated.

Honestly, I can't understand why any dedicated Christian would disagree with Lovelace. If the bible is "right" and the koran is "wrong," then (apart from concerns for the plumbing) why shouldn't all Christians want to flush the koran down the toilet?
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:27 am
t-o-l-e-r-a-n-c-e
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:49 am
eoe: How is it "tolerant" for a devout Christian to pretend that the koran is not filled with error and falsity? And why exactly should Christians be tolerant anyway?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:53 am
Ummm...just a quick guess Joe.Perhaps because it is such an integral part of the Bible?
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Dartagnan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:54 am
I think Joe is intentionally making a reductio ad asurdum argument. Which means, if memory serves, taking the logic of someone like the clergyman in question to its ultimate (absurd) stage...
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 10:11 am
of course he is...I was pitching softballs too
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 10:16 am
panzade wrote:
Ummm...just a quick guess Joe.Perhaps because it is such an integral part of the Bible?

Tolerance is certainly not an integral part of the old testament.

As for the new testament, Jesus told his followers: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." The first "great" commandment says nothing about tolerance, while the second permits one to be as tolerant as one is willing to be treated. It would be a fair assumption that folks would want to know if the god they were worshipping was a false idol, so loving thy neighbor in that case would be to tell thy neighbor that his god was leading him on a path to hell and damnation.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 10:24 am
My mis-belief was quickly revealed Joe. You're good at that. I really shouldn't be allowed to post here as I see organized religion as a terribly harmful human endeavour. So I'll leave you with a cartoon that exemplifies the problem I have with the modern "Crusades"
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 10:24 am
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050523/hajjaj.jpg
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NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 10:57 am
Joe,

My name is Michael and I am a Muslim, do you wanna know why ? Cuz I found it absurd that God allow his teachings to be written by men. More, even if he allowed that to happen , is God not sure where the truth is since we have 66 bibles ?

More, I have read the Quran and guess what !!! It is amazingly amazing. I finally got rid of the stereotypes of being some Jesus died on Cross worshipper. Jesus Peace be upon him was a true prophet of God. HE came down ordered by God to save people from associating anyone with God, the Almighty, the worthiest to worship alone and to whom belongs everything, and who is the only Judge because he is the most Just.

Now, go sin , be untolerant, and wish Jesus don't disappoint you in the Day of Judgment and say that it is only the Creator GOD only who judges people in justice. Go ahead and say to Criminals to wish they will be saved only because they have faith on JEsus that he died for their sins. Is it ok for Jesus to agree with crimes and say that he was dead on the cross to save people, I think that JEsus wanted to save people in Earth and the HEavens and not just in HEaven.

I am so happy to be Muslim after I rejected all the Cross worshipping confusion. Now, I will be held accountable for every single action and not just sin and say I am a sinner but Jesus will save me.

Nobody can be saved from the severest punishment unless you save yourself by working hard on yourself and praying to God alone. JEsus Peace be Upon Him was only the Apostle of God, a warner from the most Just's justice. Everybody will deserve what they deserve. No criminal will get away with their crimes.


Michael
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 11:25 am
joefromchicago wrote:
panzade wrote:
Ummm...just a quick guess Joe.Perhaps because it is such an integral part of the Bible?

Tolerance is certainly not an integral part of the old testament.

As for the new testament, Jesus told his followers: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." The first "great" commandment says nothing about tolerance, while the second permits one to be as tolerant as one is willing to be treated. It would be a fair assumption that folks would want to know if the god they were worshipping was a false idol, so loving thy neighbor in that case would be to tell thy neighbor that his god was leading him on a path to hell and damnation.


Do you really think that tolerance is not part of the bible and christianity, Joe? Do you really think that to love God above all else does not include tolerance? To love God above all else means to put God and his grace first. Do you really think that He meant for man to treat others badly if he would treat himself badly? One would assume that one would treat himself with the utmost dignity, respect, love and tolerance. Do you really think that the bible presents this otherwise? Do you really think that God is a false idol?
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 11:54 am
Sorry, guys.

We got a buncha nuts runnin' around down here in NC.

I attended a Baptist church here for a while. Talk about judgemental, intolerant, snotty and holier than thou! Not at all what I was taught about Christianity. They give Christians a bad name.

It's not that Christians don't have a duty to spread the word and save souls. It's the way it's done by people like the Reverend in the article. That approach doesn't save souls. It actually turns people (including me) away. And, if there is a God, I'm sure they are breaking his heart by claiming such tactics have some redeeming purpose.

I believe we have a duty to live as examples to others. It's through our actions and lives that others are enriched and come to understand the benefits of a right life. The only time it can be crammed down someones throat is when they are vulnerable, at a lowpoint, emotionally in need. Is that an acceptable way to bring people to ones own viewpoint?

Is Michael (above) gonna see this sign and go running to the Reverend begging for forgiveness for ever believing the Qu'ran? I don't think so. The only benefit of the sign is to stir emotions and add to hatred of Muslims.

Very sad.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 01:32 pm
Squinney--

The Bible banging preacher is going to get himself a rep as being one hundred percent red-blooded American Baptist.

Do you suppose he's angling for a Saturday morning radio show? This would be a traditional first step towards television evangelicalism.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 01:48 pm
Actually, it's so prevelant I'm afraid it's just one more person in a position of influence with twisted thinking. He'll have plenty of parishoners agreeing with him and dropping their offering into the plate. He won't need radio or tv.

(But, I'm not ruling it out completely)
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 01:55 pm
squinney ,

I was always a strong believer in GOD, but never could understand why God needs Jesus other than be his messenger to mankind. I never associated God with anybody or anything else that is created simply because everything is unperfect but God. I could never imagine JEsus Peace be upon him, agreeing with unjustice, agreeing with sins and washing all of them no matter how they are. I couldn't imagine JEsus saying to the Criminals that they will get away with their crimes if they believe in his death in Cross salvation. I never been able to buy that the Day of Judgment is so easy for followers of the Jesus that died on the Cross no matter how sinful they are and others who didn't believe in Jesus are going to hell. I couldn't imagine all that so I was curious enough then I read the Quran. It explained all the questions and thought me how to fear the Day of Judgment because every sin is going against the person, thought me how Just God is and how the worse of the Criminals who raped killed hated tortured others who were less powerful , will all face the worse of punishment as a revenge. I have learned how to struggle everyday, how to keep from sining and when I commit a very tiny sin it worries me so I do better day after day.

I think that we are set free by GOD to choose for us the truth and not just follow our parents and famillies way. I believe that if that we don't care and don't use our mind to seek the truth, we would be lost or we would be just gambling with our futurs. I have asked myself the question: What if I was born Hindu ??? Was I gonna make it ? Maybe yes because I have always been the one who only believe when I analyse all the data I could ever get access to. I have been reading about Islam and mostly Quran and now I am Muslim because I have been so convinced.

Michael.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 01:56 pm
Oh yes. The time is NOW to thump that bible and be as intolerant and as manic about your beliefs as your conscience will allow. Saturday morning radio show, Sunday morning tv show, cable 24-7, this is the way to get your 15 minutes. The crazier, the better.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 02:01 pm
let's get serious, folks, God knows what he's doing. He wrote this book here called the bible, and it says in the book that he made us all to be just like him, so if we're dumb, then God is dumb, and maybe even a little ugly on the side.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 02:02 pm
NewSoul wrote:
squinney ,

I was always a strong believer in GOD, but never could understand why God needs Jesus other than be his messenger to mankind. I never associated God with anybody or anything else that is created simply because everything is unperfect but God. I could never imagine JEsus Peace be upon him, agreeing with unjustice, agreeing with sins and washing all of them no matter how they are. I couldn't imagine JEsus saying to the Criminals that they will get away with their crimes if they believe in his death in Cross salvation. I never been able to buy that the Day of Judgment is so easy for followers of the Jesus that died on the Cross no matter how sinful they are and others who didn't believe in Jesus are going to hell. I couldn't imagine all that so I was curious enough then I read the Quran. It explained all the questions and thought me how to fear the Day of Judgment because every sin is going against the person, thought me how Just God is and how the worse of the Criminals who raped killed hated tortured others who were less powerful , will all face the worse of punishment as a revenge. I have learned how to struggle everyday, how to keep from sining and when I commit a very tiny sin it worries me so I do better day after day.

I think that we are set free by GOD to choose for us the truth and not just follow our parents and famillies way. I believe that if that we don't care and don't use our mind to seek the truth, we would be lost or we would be just gambling with our futurs. I have asked myself the question: What if I was born Hindu ??? Was I gonna make it ? Maybe yes because I have always been the one who only believe when I analyse all the data I could ever get access to. I have been reading about Islam and mostly Quran and now I am Muslim because I have been so convinced.

Michael.


New Soul,
I don't know where you learned about the bible and Jesus Christ, but you missed quite a bit including the parts about repentance and all of the other things that are necessary to be found acceptable by God. I hope that you had a better and real understanding of the Muslim faith before you converted.
0 Replies
 
 

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