steissd you seem to think i am attacking Israel when in fact i think the blame is quite equal
I know. You give the same treatment to the terrorists and those that defend themselves against terror. IMO, it hardly can be fair.
specifically directed?
Blowing up houses so that a nearby building collapse and killing a innocent women.
Shooting a man in his late 70's from his donkey because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Shooting deliberatly at film crews and journalists because they were filming the IDF actions. Several journalists are already been killed by IDF. And many more injured or shot at with the intention to scare them. This is also said by the New York based "Committee to Protect Journalists".
Frolic wrote:Shooting a man in his late 70's from his donkey because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Wrong place and wrong time are keywords. In the wartime it is dangerous.
There are no proofs either that the journalists were shot deliberately. When someone shoots a movie in the same place the other people shoot bullets, he/she can be occasionally shot if he does not hide. Journalists neglected safety rules known to any combat soldier, even unexperienced one.
No one is obliged to provide them with the most convenient and safe working conditions in the middle of the battle: no one invited them to come to the battle area.
Frolic, have you ever been a combat soldier of any army in the world, even this of Monaco (that has never fought in any war)? Have you ever taken part in any battle? If not, how you can be so sure in the things you state here?
dys
Quote:is whats happening productive?
Yes if it prevents even one terrorist attack it is productive.
What would you have the Israelis do say thank you every time a terrorist attack occurs. The Jews went like sheep to slaughter during WW2. Don't expect that to be repeated.
IDF command assesses that more than 70 percent of the terror attacks are being prevented by means of the active involvement of the Army.
frolic, there are plenty of allegations of IDF "Targeting" of "Uninvolved" civilians. I have seen nothing which lends credenc e to such allegations. A soldier under fire has as his first and primary concern suppressing that fire. A journalist who knowingly places himself in harm's way assumes the risk for his actions pursuant thereto. Unintended casualties among uninvolved civilians are often a feature of armed action. A journalist jockeying for a camera angle is not "Uninvolved". It would be preferable were the journalist suffer no ill effect, but it is not to be expected that ill effect is not a considerable possibility given the endeavor.
The Israeli retaliatory focus is on parties other than those "uninvolved". The Palestinians appear to have no concept of "Uninvolved".
I destest and condemn the violence of both sides to the dispute, though, at risk of infuriating you, I will submit that I find The Palestinians possessed of weaker moral argument regarding tactics than The Israelis, who press a flawed argument in the first place.
timber
As i've said in another thread. The only army i appreciate is that of Iceland.
BTW, some time ago i saw a TF1(Frech TV-station) documentary about working in Palestina as a journalist. The French journalist(Bertrand Aguire) was filming an IDF jeep when suddenly a man comes out of the jeep, aims and shoots at the journalist. This was FILMED. The journalist was shot in the chest-area but thank God he had a bullet proof jacket.(if not he wont be with us anymore)
The soldier opened fire at a short distance, with real bullets, firing at body height, when his own safety was not threatened. There were more cases in the docu. A arab women(i think Jordan) was shot in the leg when she had a stand-up in front of a watch-tower. Everything was quiet and calm. No riots, no shooting, no nothing. And suddely one single shot fired at that lady. Can you explain this?
"Reporters Without Borders" has registered that 46 journalists have been injured by gunfire since September 2000. As a result of investigations in the field, the organisation is in a position to say that the gunfire was of Israeli origin in most of these cases. Several of these journalists were seriously injured. Some were clearly identifiable and were at a distance from the clashes when they were hit. With few exceptions, no serious investigations have been carried out and few sanctions have been applied to those who fired the shots, even when responsibility was clear(the soldier was filmed), as in the case of TF1 correspondent Bertrand Aguirre, injured on 15 May 2001 in Ramallah.
There were so many occasions of Palestinian terrorists dressing in the IDF uniform for performing terror attacks that I cannot be surprised in anything. If the Israeli soldier got a command to put end to photographing (and such orders usually are not being given), he would just confiscate the camera, make the journalist enter the jeep and take him away from the area. There was no need to shoot the Frenchman down. I do not say that France is very popular in Israel, but the "Bonjour" bakeries network has not been renamed, the "Marie Antoinette" restaurant in Tel Aviv was not closed, and no one hunts French citizens.
By the way, even if such thing happened (and it did not), the first thing the soldier would do after shooting the journalist would be taking his camera and annihilating the record. This could by no means get to the TF1. And when someone shoots from short distance in order to kill for sure, he usually aims head, and then makes a control into the scull to provide guaranteed death. It seems to me that all this was just staged by TF1, and the one shooting the French journalist was not a soldier but a paid stunt. The IDF uniform may be easily bought in some shops. It is a security breach, but nothing is done about it.
If it appears I have been excusing Palestinians from blame, I have not. As I said earlier I favor the solution of a coalition of nations to separate the two sides and then babysit them to maturity or at least keep them from interminging.
I am not sure that the bullet-proof jackets accessible to civilians to protect against assault rifle bullets either, especially when these are shot from short distance. They have some degree of efficiency against pistol munition and against fragments of grenades.
American peace activist standing trying to "protect" a Palestinian house just got killed by a bulldozer, or so I hear.
Ooooh boy! You really need some antidote for Brainwashed syndrome.
There were several filmcrews in the area. The action of that IDF soldies was even filmed from different angles. All showing the same.
Yeah sure, Tthe Palestinians dress up like IDF soldiers and drive in Israeli jeeps in order to slaughter the journalists and blame the IDF. I am not retarded so please... come up with a decent explanation. But i'm afraid there is no decent explanation.
Babysit? I have no objections for Palestinians to be babysitted. But no Third World units, please, in the peacekeeping forces. Lebanese experience shows that their officers can easily be bribed, and they let terrorists acting in front of the peacekeepers' positions.
Taking into account sheer pro-Palestinian bias of continental Europeans, they are not welcome here either.
U.S., UK or Australian troops will be the best candidates for peacekeeping mission, in case the respective countries agree to take such a mission.
There is no need to babysit Israel. If the peacekeepers prevent terror attacks on Israel, IDF will remain in its barracks and will not be in any contact with Palestinians.
If Palestinians dress into IDF soldiers and come to Israeli cities to kill civilians, they could easily do the same thing to the journalists.
I am not claiming that IDF soldiers are greates humanists in the world, but this attack on the French TV correspondent was non-professional, therefore I cannot believe that the one that shot was really a soldier.
If the Israeli authorities really wanted to scare the foreign correspondents out to prevent their coming to the territories, the sniper fire would be used. It is more efficient, and the shooter cannot be identified by the civilians and to appear on the video tape.
I see no other solution than the stalemate of I kill yours as you kill mine.
Frolic
. I think the individual soldier in the IDF is to be commended for unusual restraint. Were it I and I had seen friends and relatives blown to pieces if handed a gun and sent to my enemies territory I would shoot anything I perceived to be a threat. Shoot first and ask questions later.
About the killing of that American peace activist:
A witness said they had been seated for three hours in front of the house and the driver of the bulldozer must have seen them before driving over the girl. The arrival of ambulances was delayed because drivers were afraid to approach the Israeli forces.
A male participant said he was about 10 yards from Corrie when the incident occurred. Corrie, clearly visible in an orange jacket, placed herself between the bulldozer and houses targeted by the Israelis.(CNN)
And anybody knows why those houses were targeted? Is Destroying houses normal, humane behaviour?
