4
   

Quran and age of Universe

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 02:35 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

I value your 'input', nonetheless.
Do you have a question for us?


Other then how normally intelligent humans can buy into gods fantasies that one would think that a child who had approach the age of reason would laugh at.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 06:08 pm
I still can not understand why such large numbers of people who in everyday life seem bright an even very very capable can turn to the same manner of religion fantasies as the Romes did or even far earlier peoples and while rejecting known facts as needed to maintain their fantasies.

Some interesting research is ongoing but...??????

My guess is it a combination of brain wiring and amount of social pressure being apply to the individuals.



Quote:


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.02191/full


The Negative Relationship between Reasoning and Religiosity Is Underpinned by a Bias for Intuitive Responses Specifically When Intuition and Logic Are in Conflict

Richard E. Daws and Adam Hampshire*
The Computational, Cognitive and Clinical Neuroimaging Laboratory (C3NL), Imperial College London, London, United Kingdom
It is well established that religiosity correlates inversely with intelligence. A prominent hypothesis states that this correlation reflects behavioral biases toward intuitive problem solving, which causes errors when intuition conflicts with reasoning. We tested predictions of this hypothesis by analyzing data from two large-scale Internet-cohort studies (combined N = 63,235). We report that atheists surpass religious individuals in terms of reasoning but not working-memory performance. The religiosity effect is robust across sociodemographic factors including age, education and country of origin. It varies significantly across religions and this co-occurs with substantial cross-group differences in religious dogmatism. Critically, the religiosity effect is strongest for tasks that explicitly manipulate conflict; more specifically, atheists outperform the most dogmatic religious group by a substantial margin (0.6 standard deviations) during a color-word conflict task but not during a challenging matrix-reasoning task. These results support the hypothesis that behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect.

Introduction
The relationship between religiosity and intelligence has been an important topic amongst scientists and the public for some time (Harris, 2004; Dennett, 2006; Hitchens, 2007; Dawkins, 2008). Early evidence from the twentieth century suggested that religiosity and intelligence negatively correlated amongst college students (Howells, 1928; Sinclair, 1928). Subsequently, Argyle (1958) concluded that intelligent students are less likely to be religious. More recently, scientists have shown a striking paucity of religious belief (Ecklund et al., 2016), particularly within the elites of the National Academy of Sciences (Larson and Witham, 1998) and the Royal Society (Stirrat and Cornwell, 2013).

Psychometric population studies have now firmly established that religiosity influences cognitive style (Shenhav et al., 2012), and that religiosity and intelligence negatively correlate (Verhage, 1964; Pargament et al., 1998; Nyborg, 2009; Gervais and Norenzayan, 2012; Pennycook et al., 2013, 2014; Razmyar and Reeve, 2013; Zuckerman et al., 2013). Furthermore, it has been reported that IQ and disbelief in God correlate at r = 0.60 across 137 countries (Lynn et al., 2009).

The cognitive sciences are establishing a mechanistic understanding of the religiosity effect. For example, it has been seen that religious background modulates visual attention (Colzato et al., 2008). Lesion studies have demonstrated that ventro-medial prefrontal cortex lesion patients have elevated scores of religious fundamentalism (Asp et al., 2012). Experimental studies have demsontrated that increases in religious fundamentalism relate to increases in memory recall accuracy and higher rates of false-positives in a memory task (Galen et al., 2009). Religious fundamentalism has also shown modest positive correlations with life satisfaction (Carlucci et al., 2015) and negative correlations with cognitive flexibility (Zhong et al., 2017) and openness (Saroglou, 2002; Carlucci et al., 2011, 2015).

Dual-process models (Evans, 2008) assert that cognition is composed of intuitive and logical information processing. Individual differences in cognitive style have been related to the propensity to engage logical processes during problem solving (Stanovich and West, 1998). Meanwhile, recent experimental evidence has demonstrated a link between religiosity and cognitive style (Gervais and Norenzayan, 2012; Pennycook et al., 2014). From this, a prominent hypothesis has emerged which suggests that the religiosity effect is underpinned by cognitive-behavioral biases that cause poorer detection of situations in which intuition and logic are in conflict (Pennycook et al., 2014). Put simply, religious individuals are less likely to engage logical processes and be less efficient at detecting reasoning conflicts; therefore, they are more likely to take intuitive answers at face value and this impairs performance on intelligence tests. More broadly, from the perspective of this “dual-process” hypothesis, religious cognition is facilitated and hallmarked by intuitive decision making (Norenzayan and Gervais, 2013; Morgan, 2014; Oviedo, 2015).

It can be predicted from this hypothesis that the religiosity effect should be particularly disadvantageous for handling problems with counterintuitive answers; however, as a cognitive-behavioral bias, rather than reduced cognitive capacity per se, it follows that religiosity may not affect all tasks that involve reasoning. Reasoning tasks without intuitively obvious but logically correct answers may engage religious individual's latent ability to resolve complicated problems.

Here, we apply a novel combination of analyses to data from two Internet-cohort studies with detailed sociodemographic questionnaires and performance data from multiple cognitive tasks. Critically, these cohorts are large enough for the religiosity effect to be reliably examined in relation to, and while factoring out, a range of potentially confounding sociodemographic factors.

In study 1, we test four predictions of the dual-process hypothesis. (1) The religiosity effect should be greatest for reasoning latent variables as resolved via factor analysis. (2) The religiosity effect should be greatest for reasoning tasks designed to involve conflict resolution. (3) The religiosity effect should be in addition to, and not dependent on, other sociodemographic variables. (4) The pattern of the religiosity effect across tasks should differ qualitatively from those observed for other sociodemographic factors relating to latent reasoning ability.

In study 2, we replicate the findings of study 1 and test the further predictions that religious dogmatism mediates the religiosity-reasoning relationship at the levels of individuals (5) and religious groups (6). Finally, we test whether conversion to, or apostasy from, a religious group predicts cognitive performance (7).
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 08:45 pm
Chill out, live and let live. Atheists too harbour unproven beliefs, although these are often unconscious, as was the case with Frank Apisa.

Many very smart people have had a form of spirituality. For instance Einstein.

To despise any form of spirituality is a form of self-hatred, because spirituality is near universal in us humans. The idea that this pretty universal trait is a problem, implies that humans and their constant search for answers are fundamentally flawed.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 07:51 am
@Olivier5,
LOL sorry but there is zero in fact below zero indication that Einstein was a believer in any kind or manner of personal god.

In fact he was attack in a constant manner by the religion members of society for being non religion.

Quote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein

Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]

Personal God[edit]
Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding the existence of an anthropomorphic God, such as the God of Abrahamic religions, often describing this view as "naïve"[3] and "childlike".[13] In a 1947 letter he stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."[14] In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich on 17 December 1952, Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."[15]

Prompted by his colleague L. E. J. Brouwer, Einstein read the philosopher Eric Gutkind's book Choose Life,[16] a discussion of the relationship between Jewish revelation and the modern world. On January 3, 1954, Einstein sent the following reply to Gutkind: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. .... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."[17][18][19] In 2018 his letter to Gutkind was sold for $2.9 million.[20]

On 22 March 1954 Einstein received a letter from Joseph Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[21]

In his book Ideas and Opinions (1954) Einstein stated, "In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests."[3] In December 1922 Einstein said the following on the idea of a saviour, "Denominational traditions I can only consider historically and psychologically; they have no other significance for me.[9]

Pantheism and Spinoza's God[edit]
Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

On 24 April 1929, Einstein cabled Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in German: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."[24] He expanded on this in answers he gave to the Japanese magazine Kaizō in 1923:

Scientific research can reduce superstition by encouraging people to think and view things in terms of cause and effect. Certain it is that a conviction, akin to religious feeling, of the rationality and intelligibility of the world lies behind all scientific work of a higher order. [...] This firm belief, a belief bound up with a deep feeling, in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God. In common parlance this may be described as "pantheistic" (Spinoza).[25]

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 08:14 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Chill out, live and let live. Atheists too harbour unproven beliefs, although these are often unconscious, as was the case with Frank Apisa.

Many very smart people have had a form of spirituality. For instance Einstein.

To despise any form of spirituality is a form of self-hatred, because spirituality is near universal in us humans. The idea that this pretty universal trait is a problem, implies that humans and their constant search for answers are fundamentally flawed.


Making up gods out of thin air is indeed a problem as it had proven harmful for all the history of mankind by providing the excused for mass murders of others who does not happen to share the details of your fantasy an also gave the excused not to do the hard work of finding out how the universe does work.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 10:51 am
@BillRM,
The "pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza" is still a god; and to believe in it is still a form of spirituality.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 11:05 am
@BillRM,
Atheists or secular regimes have waged wars and killed many innocent people too.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 11:35 am
@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The "pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza" is still a god; and to believe in it is still a form of spirituality.


LOL take that up with Einstein ghost or as he had said:

Quote:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[21]




Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 10:20 pm
@BillRM,
If you have an emotional need to feel contemptuous about believers, be my guest.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 10:29 pm
@Olivier5,
Many of the atheists do.

Then again, many Christians partake in similar behavior...often against other Christians.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2019 10:58 pm
@Sturgis,
Yes. Human nature, tribes, ego, etc. I'm probably not myself the least condescending person you ever met...
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jul, 2019 03:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

If you have an emotional need to feel contemptuous about believers, be my guest.


Sorry but it is not so must contempt as almost total disbelieve that any rational adult could buy into such complete nonsense on it face.

Still can remember my feelings on reading the KJB as a child as once I gotten past the beautiful poetry of in the beginning it was all sharply downhill.

Nor did I care for the state of NJ trying to force religion down the throat of the children in public schools at the time.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jul, 2019 09:33 am
@BillRM,
What people believe or not is less important than how they treat other people.

To love is more important
Than to speak in the name of God
And more important than to believe in him.
Indeed, without love,
You can not speak in the name of God
And you do not believe in him.
— Jacob of Serugh
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Jul, 2019 09:57 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

What people believe or not is less important than how they treat other people.

To love is more important
Than to speak in the name of God
And more important than to believe in him.
Indeed, without love,
You can not speak in the name of God
And you do not believe in him.
— Jacob of Serugh


The problem is that religions had always been a major driver for the treatment of others who do not share that religion. In a very few cases it been the cause of good treatments such as the Muslims saving hundreds of thousands of Jews for death by Christians but for the most part it been the cause of very bad treatment up to massive deaths.

See Trump and friends treatment of Muslims for the crime of being both Muslims an also not sharing finance ties with them as just one recent example.


HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 08:44 am
@Olivier5,
Many scientifically facts which are only proven in last century are written in Quran 1400 years ago. Quran does not go against any proven scientific fact. I believe if 80% of what Quran says is proven by science then 20% of Quran which is neither proven nor rejected by science will one day be proven by science to be true.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 08:54 am
@nacredambition,
Quote:
What are your opinions on proselytizing drivel and sycophantic delusion?


By proselytizing drivel, do you mean forced conversion?

Quran clearly says that there should be no compulsion in the matter of religion.
Quote:
"there is no compulsion in religion" (2,256).


By sycophantic delusion, did you mean praising person in authority is a way which is not sincere just to get some favor? Islam does not support any such behavior, all praises belong to Allah.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 09:22 am
@mark noble,
Quote:
How long did Muhammad spend in the 'wilderness', please? Would you agree He was 'completely' isolated from 'civilization' and its many attractions?


Prophet Muhammad PBUH started getting revelation from Allah when he was 40. I did spend his life before Prophethood as a normal person and was well known for his honesty and people trusted him the most. The Arabs were very backward and quarrelsome and were not civilized at all. Prophet Muhammad PBUH was an illiterate person who could not read and write. Muhammad PBUH could not harmonize the idolatry of the Arabs with that belief in the unity of God which he himself had reached. In his distress Muhammad PBUH would withdraw into the wilderness. In the wilderness Muhammad PBUH spent much time in fasting and practices solitary. In fact he was Cave Hira when he first received the message from God Almighty. To answer your question, there are not many details that for how many years Prophet Muhammad PBUH withdraw himself in the wilderness but it seems He used to do that for certain months in a year and most likely he started doing it 4-5 years before he received revelation.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 09:24 am
@BillRM,
'Normal' intelligence?

You say 'god'... What do you mean?

God is Everything - Everything (You too) is God.
Have an awesome Everything.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 09:33 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Thanks Habib.

Muhammad is one of many routes (roads) to God (ALL) - And I cannot be other than pleased by those, like yourself, who have the ability to discern this.

You are a good student of God, Habib.

Peace be upon All.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 09:56 am
@mark noble,
Quote:
'God is the creator of all things and over all things He has authority'.

'ALL THINGS'.

So 'NO THING' is made, other than by Him, God?

Are these, our, 'created' posts made by Him, God?


I think it will be helpful to address your question in two ways. One, about absolute knowledge of Allah and second Allah's attribute of Creator.

Allah has Absolute knowledge:

Allah Knows everything that will happen. The first thing that He created was the "pen" and He ordered the pen to write. The pen wrote until it had written everything that would happen. And then Allah began to create the universe. All of this was already known to Him before He created it. He does have absolute and total control at all times. There is nothing that happens except that He is in total control of it at all times. This indicates that Allah has absolute knowledge of all things at present, in the past and whatever will happen in future. Does Allah know that I am writing this post? Absolutely YES, Did I knew what I will write? I did not but Allah already knew this because His knowledge has no limits and He knows everything.

It's like programming. A programmer may know every possible output of the program, but according to the input of a certain user, one will get a certain output. But whatever output the program will show, it is already known by the programmer.

Our life works in a similar way. We have the independence to do what we want to do. And according to the choices, we can lead our lives in infinitely possible ways and all those possibilities are known by Allah. But what we will do, is up to us, and whatever our life turns out to be, it will be one of those infinite amount of possibilities, which is already known by Allah. That is how, our life is not decided by the Almighty, rather whatever we can do with our life, is already known by Him.

Allah is the Creator:
Now back to your question, create in reference/context to God is used for creating out of absolutely nothing, or out of the ordinary/normal circumstances. For example, the universe. Human beings, trees, universal laws such as gravitational force etc.

Now there are many thing which human being have made. About products humans invented, if Allah has not desired it to be created, it would not have. I mean I want to make paper, I cannot make it unless Allah desires it to be made. Allah gave us intellect and sometimes inspire some individuals in a way which leads to a new invention ( Think about how many discoveries or inventions are accidentals?). Anyways the things which we create require material and can't grow by itself. For example if I need to make a table, I will need material to make a table and once table is made it will remain same physical size until it is demolished. On the other hand, things which God has created such as human beings are created out of nothing and they grow with out any addition of matter. Some people say that well human beings eat and drink and that's how they grow. But where do they get their food from? Second, why they stop growing after a certain age?

Anyways I hope you get my point. If anything is unclear please feel free to ask. I love your questions and hope we both and many others can benefits from our dialogue.
 

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