4
   

Quran and age of Universe

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 10:14 am
@HabibUrrehman,
My understanding is that evolution processes by trial and error.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 10:35 am
@Olivier5,
This is not enough for me to understand what really you believe when it comes to evolution. I mean do you think we have no creator and we were apes at some point in time?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 10:56 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Our ancestors were apes, that is correct.

A "trial and error process" is a series of repeated, varied attempts which are continued until some amount of success is achieved. Evolution works like this: a series of genetic variants are produced randomly, followed by the elimination of those not working. I have no problem assuming that some god(s) does this, invisibly throwing the genetic dices so to speak, but then it must be a rather fallible god.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 12:56 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Our ancestors were apes, that is correct


In science there is always theory and variation based on trial and error process you mentioned. For example the earliest scientist thought that the atom is the smallest thing. But then, they found out that atom itself is composed by subatomic particle. The current theory of atomic form is quantum mechanics atom. And maybe in the future, this theory could turn out to be very wrong. And our generation could come up with a theory which is way different from what we were taught.
Same as the theory of evolution. There is some evidence that testify this theory and it may be true. You could consider and accept that theory. But that doesn’t mean that it must be true. People in the past believed that the sun is revolving around our earth. What is the evidence? Day and night cycle. But turns out, it is the earth which is rotating so there could be a day night cycle. It is possible that the theory of evolution is true. But it also could turned out to be very wrong. There is no certainty in science. So, never take it as a fact, but you could consider it as a possibility. And I believe that the truth will prevail.

Below are two articles which refute evolution which I found very convincing. Hope you will have time to read these and let me know your thoughts:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3986/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution-part-1/

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3988/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution-part-2/
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 01:40 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:
Our ancestors were apes, that is correct


In science there is always theory and variation based on trial and error process you mentioned. For example the earliest scientist thought that the atom is the smallest thing. But then, they found out that atom itself is composed by subatomic particle. The current theory of atomic form is quantum mechanics atom. And maybe in the future, this theory could turn out to be very wrong. And our generation could come up with a theory which is way different from what we were taught.
Same as the theory of evolution. There is some evidence that testify this theory and it may be true. You could consider and accept that theory. But that doesn’t mean that it must be true. People in the past believed that the sun is revolving around our earth. What is the evidence? Day and night cycle. But turns out, it is the earth which is rotating so there could be a day night cycle. It is possible that the theory of evolution is true. But it also could turned out to be very wrong. There is no certainty in science. So, never take it as a fact, but you could consider it as a possibility. And I believe that the truth will prevail.

Below are two articles which refute evolution which I found very convincing. Hope you will have time to read these and let me know your thoughts:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3986/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution-part-1/

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3988/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution-part-2/



An here I was under the impression that Islam was far ahead of the more backward Christian faiths an support science such as evolution.

Damn shame to be wrong in that regard as what science an knowledge that was recover by the West after the dark age it was mainly from the knowledge that Islam kept safe during that sad era.

Hopefully you are not a typical member of that faith so I can keep my high regards for Islam in that area an not lump it in with the Christians science deniers.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 01:40 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Of course, nothing in science is ever 100% certain, otherwise it would be a religion, a dogma. But I'm personally convinced of it. It's the only theory in existence that fits the fossil record.

Mind you, many believers (eg in Catholicism) assume that the theory of evolution is indeed true, but that God directs it, or invented the mechanism and let it unfold. In other words, for them, evolution is God's creation. I think it's a good way to reconcile Darwinism with faith, if one needs to.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 01:51 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Of course, nothing in science is ever 100% certain, otherwise it would be a religion, a dogma. But I'm personally convinced of it. It's the only theory in existence that fits the fossil record.

Mind you, many believers (eg in Catholicism) assume that the theory of evolution is indeed true, but that God directs it, or invented the mechanism and let it unfold. In other words, for them, evolution is God's creation. I think it's a good way to reconcile Darwinism with faith, if one needs to.


True if you have a strong emotional need to believe in a god you can place the god in the beginning of the chain of evolution. In fact you could go all the way back to the big bang if you care to do so.

A god is not needed an just add unneeded complications an does not follow Occam's razor principle but it will not do any great harm to our understanding of the universe.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 03:19 pm
@Olivier5,
There are few Muslims who support the theory of evolution and use Quranic verses to support the idea. But to me those verses are not very clear and could be interpreted in any way. I don't want to twist the meaning of these verse just to convince you or anyone else.

All I am saying is that the theory of evolution cant be proven by science. The law of entropy holds that the entire universe is unavoidably proceeding towards a more disordered, unplanned, and disorganized state. The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together over time, in a particular order, to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA, whereupon millions of different living species with even more complex structures gradually emerged.  According to the theory of evolution, this supposed process—which yields a more planned, more ordered, more complex and more organized structure at each stage—was formed all by itself under natural conditions.  The law of entropy makes it clear that this so-called natural process utterly contradicts the laws of physics.

For more details you can read the articles for which I shared the links in my earlier posts.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 03:27 pm
@BillRM,
God is the most simplest thing which can be proved with logic, everything else is based on several assumptions for which you or anyone else will only have an answer such as " I don't know."

For example who stared Bigbang? you probably don't know? Don't you wonder that Bigbang is the only explosion which resulted in an order? Who put that order in place. I guess, you probably "don't know."
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 03:34 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
When we look at the sources of Islam – the Quran and Sunnah – we see that, with respect to human beings living on the Earth today, they are all descendants of Adam and Eve.
God also says:

Quote:
“O mankind!  We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another.  Verily, the most honorable of you with God is the one who is the most God-fearing.” (Quran 49:13)


The Prophet Muhammad PBUH identified the "male" mentioned in this verse as being Adam.  He said:

Quote:
“Human beings are the children of Adam and Adam was created from Earth.  God says: ‘O mankind!  We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another.  Verily, the most honorable of you with God is the one who is the most God-fearing’.” (Al-Tirmidhi)


We also see that God created Adam directly without the agency of parents.
God says:

Quote:
“The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59]


We also know that Eve was created from Adam without the agency of parents.
In the Quran, God states clearly:

Quote:
“O mankind!  Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women.” (Quran 4:1)


Therefore, the Quran tells us that Adam and his wife were the father and mother of all human beings living on the Earth today.  We know about this by way of direct revelation from God.

The direct creation of Adam (peace be upon him) can neither be confirmed nor denied by science in any way. 
This is because the creation of Adam (peace be upon him) was a unique and singular historical event.  It is a matter of the Unseen and something that science does not have the power to confirm or deny.  As a matter of the Unseen, we believe it because God informs us about it.  We say the same for the miracles mentioned in the Quran.  Miraculous events, by their very nature, do not conform to scientific laws and their occurrence can neither be confirmed nor denied by science.

What about other living things, besides the human beings living on the Earth today?  

What about plants, animals, fungi, and the like?
When we turn our attention to this question, we find that the Quran and Sunnah do not tell us much about the flora and fauna that was present on the Earth before or at the time of Adam and Eve’s arrived upon it.  The sacred texts also do not tell us how long ago Adam and Eve arrived upon the Earth.  Therefore, these are things we cannot ascertain from the sacred texts.
The only thing that the Quran and Sunnah require us to believe about the living things on Earth today is that God created them in whatever manner He decided to create them.
God says:
Quote:
“God is the Creator of all things and over all things He has authority.” (Quran 39:62)

Indeed, God states specifically that He created all life forms:
Quote:
“And We made from water all living things.” (Quran 21:30)

We know that “God does what He pleases.” God can create His creatures in any manner that He chooses.

Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Quran and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. 
The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry.  The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.
The role of science is only to observe and describe the patterns that God places in His creation.  If scientific observation shows a pattern in the evolution of species over time that can be described as natural selection, this is not in itself unbelief.  It is only unbelief for a person to think that this evolution took place on its own, and not as a creation of God.  A Muslim who accepts evolution or natural selection as a valid scientific theory must know that the theory is merely an explanation of one of the many observed patterns in God’s creation.
As for the fossil remains of bipedal apes and the tools and artifacts associated with those remains, their existence poses no problem for Islamic teachings.  There is nothing in the Quran and Sunnah that either affirms or denies that upright, brainy, tool using apes ever existed or evolved from other apelike ancestors.  Such animals may very well have existed on Earth before Adam’s arrival upon it.  All we can draw from the Quran and Sunnah is that even if those animals once existed, they were not the forefathers of Adam (peace be upon him).
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 04:54 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

God is the most simplest thing which can be proved with logic, everything else is based on several assumptions for which you or anyone else will only have an answer such as " I don't know."

For example who stared Bigbang? you probably don't know? Don't you wonder that Bigbang is the only explosion which resulted in an order? Who put that order in place. I guess, you probably "don't know."


LOL an then you have a creature IE a god that need to be more complex then the rest of the universe coming from somewhere.

An no at the moment we do not know all the details of the working of the universe but that in no way is help by dreaming up an all powerful god.

The big bang or a local lighting bolt are both not likely to have a god behind those events no matter what humans can dream up such as Zeus .
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 10:23 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
The Quran got this wrong, that's all. At least if one interprets it literally.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2019 10:36 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
There are few Muslims who support the theory of evolution and use Quranic verses to support the idea.

Well then, the question is in effect irrelevant to Islam. Science and religion should not be confused.

If you want to talk about the science of evolution, there are a few alive threads on the topic.
0 Replies
 
nacredambition
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 12:25 am
@HabibUrrehman,
What are your opinions on proselytising drivel and sycophantic delusion?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 06:21 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Is not the first raindrop, in a welcome shower, as breathtaking as the last?
Everything is made 'perfectly' (Equal)
Some play 'major' parts - Some play 'MINOR' parts - But if ANY were 'Not' - ALL would be 'Not'.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 06:31 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Spot on.

How long did Muhammad spend in the 'wilderness', please?
Would you agree He was 'completely' isolated from 'civilization' and its many attractions?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 06:46 am
@HabibUrrehman,
'God is the creator of all things and over all things He has authority'.

'ALL THINGS'.

So 'NO THING' is made, other than by Him, God?

Are these, our, 'created' posts made by Him, God?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 07:31 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

'God is the creator of all things and over all things He has authority'.

'ALL THINGS'.

So 'NO THING' is made, other than by Him, God?

Are these, our, 'created' posts made by Him, God?


Logic and commonsense and any religion can not exist in peace together it would seems.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 08:56 am
@BillRM,
Habib will understand what I posted.
You do not.

Had I posted it to you - It would have gone:

As Above...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2019 09:04 am
@BillRM,
I value your 'input', nonetheless.
Do you have a question for us?
 

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