2
   

Turning PBS into another propaganda tool

 
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:24 am
Thomas wrote:
rayban1 wrote:
You and Krugman must be cut from the same bolt of cloth......your accusation that I will not debate the issues is similar to one his lies about the Bush administration. The New York Times, in an attempt to give the appearance that it is cleaning up it's act, has just hired Daniel Okrent as it's ombudsman therefore I post this article as background for the readers of this thread:

Just out of curiosity: whom do you expect to change their mind based on an opinion piece by an unidentified source?


Oh, I will provide the source in due time...........my objective was to first get you to read it and second to think about the possibility that krugman is a liar.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:29 am
rayban1 wrote:
Oh, I will provide the source in due time...........my objective was to first get you to read it and second to think about the possibility that krugman is a liar.

If that's your objective, you won't achieve it without giving me some reason to take the source seriously. There are too many crank job opinion pieces out there, and I can't be bothered to debunk every single one of them. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:37 am
I don't believe either Krugman or Moore lie.

I believe George Bush lies.

I believe Condi Rice is the person who sweeps up after Bush.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:47 am
Thomas wrote:
rayban1 wrote:
Oh, I will provide the source in due time...........my objective was to first get you to read it and second to think about the possibility that krugman is a liar.

If that's your objective, you won't achieve it without giving me some reason to take the source seriously. There are too many crank job opinion pieces out there, and I can't be bothered to debunk every single one of them. Sorry.


But yet you have swallowed Krugman's ...... "Opinion" pieces hook line and sinker.............interesting.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:48 am
Ray Ban: What I would be willing to do is that you quote to me a few specific assertions by Mr. Krugman, and explain to me why you think they are lies. We can then look into them and check a) whether they are in fact false and if so, b) whether he publically corrected it (which would make it an honest mistake that can happen to anyone.) I am not willing to respond to arbitrary accusations in opinion-spam by habitual Krugman-stalkers like Don Luskin. These pieces take a second to copy and paste, but 30 minutes or so to debunk, and this plays out as a denial-of-service-attack on my intelligence. I am unwilling to cooperate in such an attack.

You're the one calling Krugman a liar. That makes this case yours to make, not mine to refute. Your copying and pasting unsubstantiated allegations falls far short of making a case.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:51 am
Atkins wrote:
I don't believe either Krugman or Moore lie.

I believe George Bush lies.

I believe Condi Rice is the person who sweeps up after Bush.


You have just provided "just cause" for any participant here to ignore anything further you might wish to add.........move on. org stuff....could be right out of the mouth of Howard Dean.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 07:54 am
with the converse of being right out of the mouth of rayban, such a dilema!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 08:09 am
The Rayban dog and pony show hits the stage running. Here's an earlier one from this very thread from the song and dance man, Rayban the tangent man.


Quote:

JTT wrote:
It's mighty hard to reconcile that one [Chomsky] who possesses such an intellect should be dismissed in such a cavalier fashion. Would it not be more in keeping with the conservative tradition to bring forward those things that you disagree with him on and then proceed to demolish his arguments.

That cliche that you keep repeating oughta do it. Chomsky would be toast!


Quote:

Rayban replied:
I see no point in attempting to demolish Chomsky's arguments. He has accomplished that very nicely with his own anarchist ravings.........he is passe...... no one but a slobbering college Marxist would take his politics seriously. His brilliant work on Linguistics is another matter.


Quote:

rayban1 wrote:
I see no point in attempting to demolish Chomsky's arguments.

JTT:
I can't but agree with you, Rayban. A wise choice indeed. Your arsenal appears empty.


Rayban disappeared but he resurfaced a few pages later.


Quote:


rayban1 wrote:
Blatham
Perhaps this time you will take the time to read the Journalists Code of Ethics..........your question is clearly answered below


JTT wrote:
Careful, Rayban, you're turning this code into a propaganda tool. You seem unable to focus on a specific issue. You are content to bad mouth various people without ever addressing any actual issue.

He's a liberal/ he's an elistist/I've got no time for that Castro lover

and whatever other inane comments you've provided; once again, I feel compelled to remind you; without ever actually addressing anything.

I must also point out that Blatham asked you some specific questions, Rayban.


Quote:
Rayban replied:
You seem determined to inject yourself into this conversation with an antagonistic and confrontational attitude. This could be a learning experience for all of us but I will not respond favorably to your specific, intentional insults. Your appology, if extended, would be accepted......other wise go pick a fight somewhere else. The rest of us would like to have an adult discussion.


This Rayban pattern is so clear; snipe and run, snipe and run, without ever actually addressing the issues.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 08:22 am
JTT wrote:
This Rayban pattern is so clear; snipe and run, snipe and run, without ever actually addressing the issues.


This kind of projection - accusing others of one's own defects, appears to be a big thing for JTT.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 08:24 am
JTT wrote:
This Rayban pattern is so clear; snipe and run, snipe and run, without ever actually addressing the issues.

Well, I still think you ought to have left George out of the Krugman thing, but I am now inclined to agree about Ray -- I should probably stop wasting my time on him. Now, any more opinions about PBS and the government's influence on it?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 09:05 am
JTT wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
OK, but he's right about the avatar.


Jesus george, have you been hitting the sauce?! Such erudition!

Even in your more sane moments, you're really nothing more than Ollie North with a bigger degree. Rolling Eyes

So typical of you AND Rayban. You both snipe but you don't address the issues. Rayban maligns Noam Chomsky but he won't address the actual issues. Try actually arguing against Paul Krugman's points of view and see how long you last.


Well I know and like Ollie North (although mutual friends in the Navy and USMC were fond of saying "he wouldn't float head down"). Did you know that in 1967 he won the Middleweight boxing championship at the Naval Academy, defeating James Webb in the final fight? I am what I am, though comparisons with Ollie amuse, but don't offend me.

I'm no expert on the respective points of view of Krugman and Chomsky, but I do believe that both are merely opportunistically pursuing the careers their inclinations and situations have given them. In the case of Chomsky, my experience of life leads me to conclude he is probably in the grip of some fixations and likely is not a reliable interpreter of events, - his academic achievements notwithstanding. Krugman is a more rational sort but not, in my view, so rational and self-consistent as he (and Thomas) claims. Sometimes I agree with him: often I don't. Frankly I often go days at a time without once thinking about either. Do you claim to be an expert in their views and can you prove they are consistently correct as you infer?

Of one thing there is no doubt - Krugman is an ugly little bugger, and Thomas' selection of his photo for an avatar is one of the ugliest! That rat-like beard, the bulging, impudent eyes ..... Thomas once had a very uplifting photo of Milton Friedman as his avatar. I liked him more then. :wink:

In general I believe that one should try to avoid sweeping judgements about the characters of those encountered here. That is not (I hope) the point of these threads. This is no contest in vituperation. There are neither winners, nor losers. The best moments are those exchanges in which alternate points of view and different sources of information and interpretations are exchanged in a way that might at least sharpen the understanding of all the participants.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:27 am
Georgeob1 wrote:
In general I believe that one should try to avoid sweeping judgements about the characters of those encountered here. That is not (I hope) the point of these threads. This is no contest in vituperation. There are neither winners, nor losers. The best moments are those exchanges in which alternate points of view and different sources of information and interpretations are exchanged in a way that might at least sharpen the understanding of all the participants.


It is interesting to note that it is always a conservative who attempts to raise the intellectual level of these discussions.......good work George.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:59 am
Thank you. However it is not just conservatives. Jerks are fairly uniformly distributed across the political spectrum in my experience. Some of my favorite posters here live under the delusion that I am consistently wrong in my views. :wink:
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:13 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
JTT wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
OK, but he's right about the avatar.


Jesus george, have you been hitting the sauce?! Such erudition!

Even in your more sane moments, you're really nothing more than Ollie North with a bigger degree. Rolling Eyes

So typical of you AND Rayban. You both snipe but you don't address the issues. Rayban maligns Noam Chomsky but he won't address the actual issues. Try actually arguing against Paul Krugman's points of view and see how long you last.


Well I know and like Ollie North (although mutual friends in the Navy and USMC were fond of saying "he wouldn't float head down"). Did you know that in 1967 he won the Middleweight boxing championship at the Naval Academy, defeating James Webb in the final fight? I am what I am, though comparisons with Ollie amuse, but don't offend me.

Offense isn't what I intended. Pointing out that a "my [(anything), country,commander, president], right or wrong" doesn't sound to me like a high qualification for a thinker.

I'm no expert on the respective points of view of Krugman and Chomsky, but I do believe that both are merely opportunistically pursuing the careers their inclinations and situations have given them.

Quote:
In general I believe that one should try to avoid sweeping judgements about the characters of those encountered here.


That seems to be generally good advice to follow right down the pike, wouldn't you say, George?

In the case of Chomsky, my experience of life leads me to conclude he is probably in the grip of some fixations and likely is not a reliable interpreter of events, - his academic achievements notwithstanding.

Here's a good example, George. Chomsky's entire life, his persona, his calling, his position as a scholar, makes what you've said completely vacuous. If you're so certain of your viewpoint, you should address some specific issues, not resort to these "sweeping judgements about characters".

Krugman is a more rational sort but not, in my view, so rational and self-consistent as he (and Thomas) claims. Sometimes I agree with him: often I don't.

Frankly I often go days at a time without once thinking about either. Do you claim to be an expert in their views and can you prove they are consistently correct as you infer?

No, I don't claim either, but I should note here that when there is criticism of a conservative figure, an appreciable amount of substantiation follows. I find that in most of your postings, correct me if I'm wrong, there is a decided absence of the same. {look to this post}

You might say that this is natural given that most threads are "attacks" on right wingers and their viewpoints. Counter arguments are often of the Rayban type, "Chomsky is a castroite". Ask for more pointed arguments, waddya get; "there's no need to argue Chomsky's viewpoints, everyone knows he's a commie".



Of one thing there is no doubt - Krugman is an ugly little bugger, and Thomas' selection of his photo for an avatar is one of the ugliest! That rat-like beard, the bulging, impudent eyes ..... Thomas once had a very uplifting photo of Milton Friedman as his avatar. I liked him more then. :wink:

If anything, I'd say that Thomas's cool and accurate dissection of the issues raised, raises Krugman's worth. :wink:

In general I believe that one should try to avoid sweeping judgements about the characters of those encountered here.

Generally and on principle, I agree. But one can hardly turn a blind eye to hypocrisy.

That is not (I hope) the point of these threads. This is no contest in vituperation. There are neither winners, nor losers. The best moments are those exchanges in which alternate points of view and different sources of information and interpretations are exchanged in a way that might at least sharpen the understanding of all the participants.

Agreed, let's all aim for that. That just leaves one problem; what do you suggest we do with Setanta? Smile

0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 08:53 am
Point of view from the RIGHT, regarding Tomlinson and PBS. Yes this article is from the Weekly Standard.......a right wing publication.

Clearing the Airwaves
From the June 13, 2005 issue: Kenneth Tomlinson's attempt to save public broadcasting.
by Andrew Ferguson, for the Editors
06/13/2005, Volume 010, Issue 37



EXTRAVAGANCE OF LANGUAGE, SWELLING sometimes to full-throated verbal hysteria, is a defining quality of today's politics. Even so, we confess to being surprised at the cascades of abuse that have recently fallen about the ears of Kenneth Tomlinson, the chairman of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Tomlinson is a bit taken aback too, apparently--though so far he shows no signs of withering under the assault. Good for him.

President Clinton appointed Tomlinson to the CPB board in 2000, and President Bush lifted him to the chairmanship three years later. During his time on the board, which oversees and underwrites public television and radio, he's taken an interest in the issue of "objectivity and balance." He's supposed to--it's right there in Section 19 of the Public Telecommunications Act: "The Board of Directors of the Corporation shall . . . review, on a regular basis, national public broadcasting programming for quality, diversity, creativity, excellence, innovation, objectivity, and balance." This provision of the act, which was passed in 1992 by a Democratic Senate and a Democratic House of Representatives, is an elementary exercise in bureaucratic hygiene. Any government agency that touches on controversial subjects, as public broadcasting inevitably will, should cast a wide net, ideologically, if it is to count on the continued good will of the taxpayers and the lawmakers who allocate their money to pay for it.

So far, so normal, you might think. "How," Tomlinson asks, "could any segment of the American people be opposed to commonsense balance?"

Oh, but people do object, lots
of them, and in the overwrought terms typical of today's polemicists. A writer for the liberal magazine American Prospect called Tomlinson a "commissar of political correctness" bent on "Soviet-style partisan patronage, cronyism, and abuse." "The conservative attack on independent journalism has begun to spread," said a columnist for the Cox newspaper chain. Writing in the Boston Globe, a host of an NPR talk show also saw shadows of "Soviet-era Moscow" in Tomlinson's quest for balanced programming. The St. Petersburg Times editorialized against an "ideology-driven attempt to demonize and regulate one of the nation's most trusted news sources." The editorialists at the New York Times accused Tomlinson, who oversees a government program funded through the political process by 535 politicians, of "politicizing" his agency. Besides, the Times said, "there was a time when a passionate conservative might have looked at PBS programming and called it too liberal. But those days seem long past." Noted.

The Times's editorial writers were clumsily trying to make a point that was far more colorfully made a week later by Bill Moyers, the public television star, in a remarkable speech to a gathering of leftist journalists called the National Conference on Media Reform. "We're seeing unfold a contemporary example of the age-old ambition of power and ideology to squelch and punish journalists who tell the stories that make princes and priests uncomfortable." The storyteller Moyers was referring to, the fearless little fellow sticking it to all those princes and priests, was himself. On the other side, trying to censor him, were "people obsessed with control, using the government to threaten and intimidate . . . the people who are hollowing out middle-class security even as they enlist the sons and daughters of the working class in a war to make sure Ahmad Chalabi winds up controlling Iraq's oil, . . . the people who squelch free speech in an effort to obliterate dissent . . . " And especially the people who think Bill Moyers is biased.


Page 2 of 2 < Back

With all the hysteria swirling about, it is anti-climactic to list what precisely Tomlinson has done to monitor and ensure balance on the government-funded airwaves. Not a lot, as it turns out. In 2003, Tomlinson heard several complaints--some of them made by senators in a hearing of the Senate commerce committee--about Moyers's show Now with Bill Moyers. So he hired an outside consultant to assess the ideological range of guests on the show, in accordance with Section 19. Then he decided public broadcasting could use a pair of ombudsmen, so he hired a former White House official to draw up their job descriptions and guidelines. Then he hired the ombudsmen: William Schulz, formerly of Reader's Digest, and Ken Bode, formerly of NBC News. Their task, in the tradition of ombudsmen everywhere, will be to write reports that almost nobody will pay attention to. And last, Tomlinson encouraged the creation of two programs showcasing politically conservative hosts, The Journal Editorial Report and Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered, to balance out the leftward tilt of shows like Now and Frontline.

Tomlinson may fail as a commissar, but he makes an excellent overseer for PBS and NPR. All along, he has said his goal is to protect public broadcasting--from the excesses of its own practitioners, if necessary--by resisting the leftward impulses that, unchecked, could endanger support from a politically diverse public. "It was my responsibility as CPB chairman to preserve public support for public broadcasting by doing something about the bias," he wrote recently. Rather than the mortal
enemy his critics claim, Tomlinson may be public broadcasting's best friend. For in one sense he is simply doing what the manager of a bureaucratic institution is supposed to do: finding a strategy to keep his agency alive for the long-term.

In a larger sense, however, the abuse of Tomlinson points to something more ominous for public broadcasting: the difficulty, perhaps even the impossibility, of maintaining government-funded media in a cultural landscape that is crisscrossed with political tripwires. We live in a remarkably touchy and thin-skinned time, and the controversy touched off by Tomlinson's mild reforms is as predictable as it is tedious. The statutory mandates for "balance and objectivity," not to mention for "excellence" and "quality," may be beyond enforcing in an era when the country's loudmouths, on the left and the right, refuse to agree on anything. (By the way, if PBS is so committed to "excellence," why does it still show those Peter, Paul, and Mary concerts?) But that's an argument for privatization--cutting public broadcasting loose from its government lifeline altogether. Public broadcasters should be careful what they wish for. If Ken Tomlinson fails today, more people will be arguing for privatization tomorrow.

--Andrew Ferguson, for the Editors
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 02:08 pm
Opposite point of view from the Baltimore Sun:

Leave NPR alone

By Anthony S. Brandon
Originally published June 6, 2005
THE CONTROVERSY over recent actions by the chair of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting might not be so disturbing if the organization were not engaging in the exact kind of political interference it was designed to prevent.

Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, who has quietly headed CPB for 18 months, recently emerged with an agenda that includes hiring monitors to find examples of liberal bias on public affairs shows, appointing ombudsmen to carry out further monitoring and making thinly veiled threats to pull funding for shows that don't meet his fairness criteria.

Mr. Tomlinson's first salvo was to cut Bill Moyers' weekly show, NOW, from one hour to 30 minutes after Mr. Moyers' departure, then fund two programs with conservative viewpoints: one hosted by Paul Gigot, editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page, the other by former CNN commentator Tucker Carlson. Now Mr. Tomlinson is considering launching an investigation into whether National Public Radio's Middle East coverage is pro-Arab.

To view these moves in their proper context, it's important to understand the origins of the CPB.

Congress established the CPB in 1967 as part of a new public broadcasting infrastructure. Unfortunately, in creating the system, Congress failed to set up an endowed trust to pay for programming, so monies are allocated annually by a panel of commissioners appointed by the U.S. president. The CPB was charged with shielding public broadcasting from political pressure and with ensuring that programming is objective and balanced.

Unlike the time-honored philosophy of openness and collaboration practiced by CPB boards for decades through Republican and Democratic administrations, the current board appears to prefer to work behind a wall of secrecy, shrouding its motives and agenda.

Mr. Tomlinson's reported efforts to terminate funding of startup national news programming appear to be an attempt to prevent the development and success of original content aimed at one of public broadcasting's core missions: to provide in-depth, contextual programming that promotes diverse voices and serves the underserved.

It is important to note that a recent survey of the American public commissioned by the CPB, undertaken jointly by a Republican and a Democratic polling firm, found that "the majority of the U.S. adult population does not believe that the news and information programming on public broadcasting is biased." Specifically, 78 percent of the general respondents indicated that NPR did not have a liberal bias.

In another study, the NPR listening audience identified itself as one-third conservative, one-third independent and one-third liberal. And congressional support for public broadcasting is and always has been bipartisan in nature.

Now The New York Times reports, "An association of news ombudsmen has rejected an attempt by two ombudsmen from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to join their organization as full-fledged members, questioning their independence."

Ironically, the CPB's scrutiny of public radio has a minimal effect on NPR, as CPB funding to NPR is minimal. Rather, it's the individual stations across America that will suffer if the CPB withholds grants to them as a way of protesting perceived NPR biases.

Locally, WYPR-FM has always attempted to fairly present all sides of an issue. The Marc Steiner Show and the 22 other programs produced by WYPR-FM are most certainly inclusive. While 7 percent of WYPR-FM's annual budget comes from the CPB, if the CPB pursues this errant course and attempts to assert influence upon our content, WYPR-FM would immediately reject CPB funds.

Government tampering with independent journalism is a very bad idea reserved for tyrannical governments. Attempting to inject balance into public broadcasting is an imprudent, and quite possibly dangerous, idea.

Anthony S. Brandon is president and general manager of WYPR-FM, a public radio station serving Maryland.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2005 05:56 am
I applaud your effort, Rayban the centrist man. {no snideness intended whatsoever, just a little joke.}

A few points:

It seems somewhat incongruous to me that Mr Tomlinson would commission a specific study of the program, NOW, to "study" whether it was balanced but at the same time HE introduces two programs with a definite right slant.

{not that there's anything wrong with that}

"How," Tomlinson asks, "could any segment of the American people be opposed to commonsense balance?"

How indeed?

Let me also point up the more than slight incongruity of a commission chairperson instituting anything. Is it not the position of a chairperson to take the disinterested view and guide, rather than mandate changes? But I digress. Back to my main point.

Then, as far as I'm aware, at least to this point in time, the results of that study, paid for with public monies, have been kept in secrecy. Shall we say, something just doesn't jive here.

Further, this purported "liberal bias" doesn't seem to square with the results of the CPB's own study, which I've repeated here;

Quote:

It is important to note that a recent survey of the American public commissioned by the CPB, undertaken jointly by a Republican and a Democratic polling firm, found that "the majority of the U.S. adult population does not believe that the news and information programming on public broadcasting is biased." Specifically, 78 percent of the general respondents indicated that NPR did not have a liberal bias.

In another study, the NPR listening audience identified itself as one-third conservative, one-third independent and one-third liberal. And congressional support for public broadcasting is and always has been bipartisan in nature.


That's 78%! Who are these people who are complaining? People who don't watch PBS or a very vociferous 22%?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all points of view shouldn't be aired. I'd LOVE to see proponents of ID lay out their case and defend the same.

Further, when a varied group of ombudsmen, [who could be more balanced than them; a veritable assemblage of Solomans] rejects the two appointed CPB ombudsmen because their independence is questioned, what does that say about these men/their appointment?

Quote:
Now The New York Times reports, "An association of news ombudsmen has rejected an attempt by two ombudsmen from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to join their organization as full-fledged members, questioning their independence."


I would really love to see the results of the private, sorry, public study kept private, of NOW, whatever they are. I'm not afraid of the truth. Bill Moyers wonders why it hasn't been made public.

Bill Moyers invited Mr Tomlinson to discuss their differences re PBS on air, on PBS, in effect to debate the problem. What could be more open and honest, what could be more fair and balanced than that? Mr Tomlinson has, so far as I'm aware, declined. Puzzling indeed.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2005 03:14 pm
JTT wrote:
I applaud your effort, Rayban the centrist man. {no snideness intended whatsoever, just a little joke.}


I suppose I should be happy that you have raised my A2K image a notch but I have a question: Who appointed you the keeper of my image?

JTT wrote:
A few points:

It seems somewhat incongruous to me that Mr Tomlinson would commission a specific study of the program, NOW, to "study" whether it was balanced but at the same time HE introduces two programs with a definite right slant.

{not that there's anything wrong with that}

"How," Tomlinson asks, "could any segment of the American people be opposed to commonsense balance?"

How indeed?

Let me also point up the more than slight incongruity of a commission chairperson instituting anything. Is it not the position of a chairperson to take the disinterested view and guide, rather than mandate changes? But I digress. Back to my main point.


Here you indicate you have a main point but what is it?

JTT wrote:
Then, as far as I'm aware, at least to this point in time, the results of that study, paid for with public monies, have been kept in secrecy. Shall we say, something just doesn't jive here.

Further, this purported "liberal bias" doesn't seem to square with the results of the CPB's own study, which I've repeated here;


Quote:

It is important to note that a recent survey of the American public commissioned by the CPB, undertaken jointly by a Republican and a Democratic polling firm, found that "the majority of the U.S. adult population does not believe that the news and information programming on public broadcasting is biased." Specifically, 78 percent of the general respondents indicated that NPR did not have a liberal bias.

In another study, the NPR listening audience identified itself as one-third conservative, one-third independent and one-third liberal. And congressional support for public broadcasting is and always has been bipartisan in nature.

Quote:

That's 78%! Who are these people who are complaining? People who don't watch PBS or a very vociferous 22%?


Now here I thought you almost had a point but then you went on to say:
Quote:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all points of view shouldn't be aired. I'd LOVE to see proponents of ID lay out their case and defend the same.


What is ID?

JTT wrote:
Further, when a varied group of ombudsmen, [who could be more balanced than them; a veritable assemblage of Solomans] rejects the two appointed CPB ombudsmen because their independence is questioned, what does that say about these men/their appointment?

Now The New York Times reports, "An association of news ombudsmen has rejected an attempt by two ombudsmen from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to join their organization as full-fledged members, questioning their independence."


Now here you have a valid point but did you check to see if they provided any evidence to back up their claim that the two PBS ombudsmen hired by Tomlinson were not independent enough. What exactly does "not independent enough actually mean?" Has this group of supposedly independent journalists taken sides in this dogfight? Were they sending a message to the Bush administration that they too are unhappy with the decision to bring some balance to a public information source. Will the MSM report on this slap in the face to two men who happen to be caught in the middle of a public quarrel.

JTT wrote:
I would really love to see the results of the private, sorry, public study kept private, of NOW, whatever they are. I'm not afraid of the truth. Bill Moyers wonders why it hasn't been made public.


I couldn't find any evidence one way or the other that the results had been kept secret. Perhaps you could provide a source that would clear this up.
Quote:

Bill Moyers invited Mr Tomlinson to discuss their differences re PBS on air, on PBS, in effect to debate the problem. What could be more open and honest, what could be more fair and balanced than that? Mr Tomlinson has, so far as I'm aware, declined. Puzzling indeed.


I'll take your word for this but is Moyers challange any different than OReilly's challenge for his critics to face him on his program. I ask for a reality check here.

Since you have been less than persuasive in this long list of "almost" points, let me attempt to make a point of my own: Tomlinson stated his opinion that Moyers was guilty of advocacy journalism which I think is a very valid accusation and ample justification for his removal from NOW.
What follows is a fairly accurate definition of advocacy journalism with it's history and examples that brand it as a form of "muckraking" in new clothes.


Advocacy journalism
Advocacy journalism aims to persuade through fact-telling. It rejects the notion of objectivity, instead exposing bias to the reader and expressing explicit opinions on the subject matter. The general goal is to present facts in such a compelling, well-researched manner that even a skeptical reader or one who does not share the writer's opinions, will be swayed to some degree, or at least better informed about the issue at hand.

Advocacy journalism is often practiced in alternative media, including alternative weekly publications. Many of these media outlets have strong political leanings. The genre may extend to a single article in a broader publication; there are also "advocacy journals" or "alternative publications" which announce their intended biases in their mastheads.




One writer for the "alternative" journalism collaborative, the Independent Media Center, writes the following in a call to action: Classic tenets of journalism call for objectivity and neutrality. These are antiquated principles no longer universally observed.... We must absolutely not feel bound by them. If we are ever to create meaningful change, advocacy journalism will be the single most crucial element to enable the necessary organizing. It is therefore very important that we learn how to be successful advocacy journalists. For many, this will require a different way of identifying and pursuing goals.1

In an April, 2000, address to the Canadian Association of Journalists, Sue Careless gave the following commentary and advice to advocacy journalists, which helps to characterize a common view of what journalistic standards the genre should follow.2

* Acknowledge your perspective up front.
* Be truthful, accurate, and credible. Don't spread propaganda, don't take quotes or facts out of context, "don't fabricate or falsify", and "don't fudge or suppress vital facts or present half-truths"
* Don't give your opponents equal time, but don't ignore them, either.
* Explore arguments that challenge your perspective, and report embarrassing facts that support the opposition. Ask critical questions of people who agree with you.
* Avoid slogans, ranting, and polemics. Instead, "articulate complex issues clearly and carefully."
* Be fair and thorough.
* Make use of neutral sources to establish facts.

Careless also criticized the "mainstream media" for unbalanced and politically biased coverage, for economic conflicts of interest, and for neglecting certain public causes. She said that alternative publications have advantages in independence, focus, and access which make them more effective public-interest advocates than the mainstream media.

History

The Crisis, the official magazine of the NAACP, was founded in 1910. It describes itself as inheriting the tradition of advocacy journalism from Freedom's Journal, http://www.thecrisismagazine.com/history.htm, which began in 1827 as "the first African-American owned and operated newspaper published in the United States."http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/libraryarchives/aanp/freedom/

Muckrakers are often claimed as the professional ancestors of modern advocacy journalists; for example: Nellie Bly, Ida M. Tarbell, Lincoln Steffens, Upton Sinclair, George Seldes, and I.F. Stone.

Objectivity
Main article: Objectivity (journalism)

Advocacy journalists may reject the principle of objectivity in their work for several different reasons.

Many believe that there is no such thing as objective reporting, that there will always be some form of implicit bias, whether political, personal, or metaphysical, and whether intentional or subconscious. This is not necessarily a rejection of the existence of an objective reality, merely a statement about our inability to report on it in a value-free fashion. This may sound like a radical idea, but many mainstream journalists accept the philosophical idea that pure "objectivity" is impossible, but still seek to minimize bias in their work. Other journalistic standards, such as balance, and neutrality, may be used to describe a more practical kind of "objectivity".

"Alternative" critics often charge that the mainstream's media claims of being "bias free" are a harmful because they paper over inevitable (often subconscious) biases, or that they have the effect of advancing certain political ideas which are disguised in an "objective" viewpoint. Critics may contend that the mainstream media reinforce majority-held ideas, marginalizing dissent and harming the larger political and cultural discourse debate and diversity.

The proposed solution is to make biases explicit, with the intention of promoting transparency and self-awareness that better serves media consumers. Advocacy journalists often assume that their audiences will share their biases (especially in politically charged alternative media), or will at least be conscious of them while evaluating what are supposed to be well-researched and persuasive facts.

Some who believe that objective (or balanced, neutral, etc.) reporting is possible, or that it is a laudable goal, do not find that striving for objectivity is always appropriate goal, perhaps depending on the publication and the purpose at hand. For example, it might be argued that when attempting to expose a waste, corruption, or abuse, a neutral position would "get in the way" of the exposition, and a "bias" against this kind of criminal activity would be quite acceptable to the intended audience.

Many advocacy journalists claim that they can reject objectivity while holding on to the goals of fairness and accuracy, and claim that corporate journalists often lack both.

Investigative reporting
Investigative journalism and muckraking might be considered forms of advocacy journalism. Investigative reports often focus on illegal or unethical activity, or aim to advance a generally accepted public interest, such as government accountability, alleviation of human suffering, etc. It might be argued that the journalist is assuming a point of view that public action is warranted to change the situation being described.

Criticism of advocacy journalism
Many professional journalists and many readers find otherwise standards-adhering and well-researched news and documentary work that dispenses with the notion of journalistic objectivity to be "bad journalism", to be a type of "editorializing" (a serious breach of journalistic protocol), or not to be journalism at all (because it does not follow the standards accepted among mainstream journalists).

Some fear that the activity of self-described advocacy journalists to be harmful to the reputation of the mainstream press as an objective, reliable source for information. Another concern is that undiscriminating readers will accept the facts and opinions advanced in advocacy pieces as if they were objective and representative, becoming unknowingly and perhaps dangerously misinformed as a result.

Advocacy journalists vary in their response to these criticisms. Some believe that mainstream and "alternative" outlets serve different purposes, and sometimes different audiences entirely, and that the difference is readily apparent to the public. Many believe that the mainstream press is not an objective and reliable source of information, and so doesn't deserve the reputation it seeks to maintain.

It has been my contention all along on this thread that Moyers was nothing more than an "influence peddler" hiding behind the worthy title of broascast journalist. The definition above of "advocacy journalist" fits Moyers like a glove.

The main point in all the long definition above of "Advocacy Journalism" is this: they reject the long and traditional requirement for objectivity in their reporting and believe that the Professional Journalists Code of Ethics is antiquated and therefore they can justify discarding it
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 10:44 pm
Rayban 1 is indeed correct about Krugman's distortions on Unemployment. As Rayban indicated, the 5.6% unemployment is nothing unusual. It happens to be the long-term average since the statistic was compiled in 1948.( At this time, the Unemployment measure is 5.1%). It is even lower, on average than it was during President Clinton's first term.

Krugman once indicated, I believe it was during Clinton's tenure, that a 5.5% unemployment level was indicative of excessive employment pointing to inflation.

Can a "brilliant Economist" like Krugman make so many mistakes or does he have a political agenda?
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 11:27 am
chiczaira wrote:
Rayban 1 is indeed correct about Krugman's distortions on Unemployment. As Rayban indicated, the 5.6% unemployment is nothing unusual. It happens to be the long-term average since the statistic was compiled in 1948.( At this time, the Unemployment measure is 5.1%). It is even lower, on average than it was during President Clinton's first term.

Krugman once indicated, I believe it was during Clinton's tenure, that a 5.5% unemployment level was indicative of excessive employment pointing to inflation.

Can a "brilliant Economist" like Krugman make so many mistakes or does he have a political agenda?


Thanks chiczaira but I think the opposition has conceded defeat on the "advocacy journalism" issue
0 Replies
 
 

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