Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

@Frank Apisa,

We're talking everlasting life, BTW. The kind offered to Adam and Eve.

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

We're talking everlasting life, BTW. The kind offered to Adam and Eve.

There are SO many problems with the concept of an after life. I doubt many people who actually believe in an afterlife actually consider all the implications and consequences of it.

How does a soul get energy to function? In this life our bodies need energy to function. Without it, the body dies. Nothing in the universe can function without consuming energy.

How does the soul have nerves? Our bodies feel tactile sensations and pain or pleasure but without nerves we wouldn't be able to feel anything. There are people born without pain nerves. They feel no pain. They don't tend to live very long because they injure themselves without knowing. So you mean to tell me the soul just magically senses pain or pleasure? Why does this universe require nerve fibers to be able to feel pain or pleasure but in an after life no nerves are needed?

Time. What do you do to fill the time? Are there baseball games in heaven? Do you practice musical instruments? Do you continue with your art skills? If you don't do any of these things then whats the point? Just to sit around? I can't imagine you would be entertained for eternity. There would be some point where you would get bored or sick of it.

Value. What gives existing for eternity it's value? The reason we cherish things in this life is because things don't last and people die. This is one of the reasons why we cherish people and experiences. If you exist for ever then there is nothing to give that existence any value or worth. You would have nothing to cherish.

Annoying family members. What if there was someone in your family you didn't like or even hated? You both end up in heaven together and now you have to exist with this person you dread for eternity?

Split up, separated from someone you love or care about. What if you end up in heaven but someone you deeply cared about ended up in hell? How could you enjoy anything knowing the one person you cared the most for is suffering? Would god just make a fake clone of this person just to appeal to you? But then the real person is suffering in hell and you are oblivious to it?

This is just a few things that are problematic for the concept of an after life. There are dozens more things that just don't or wouldn't make any sense if an after life existed. Most people never take the time to question what that kind of existence would be like. And if they do they always jump immediately to the positive and never consider if there is anything they wouldn't like about it.

1 Reply

@neologist,

I am going to die, Neo...and I am delighted that I had this time on Earth. It has been a trip of peaks and valleys...but I can truthfully say I have enjoyed damn near all of it.

Those three passages still seem to be saying something...and you seem to be avoiding dealing with it.

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@neologist,

Not sure why the JW's think it so important to pretend there is a difference between "everlasting life" and the concept of "eternal life of the soul", Neo...

...but that still does not answer the questions about the passages.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Really Frank, don't you have enough Jehovah's Witnesses banging on your door as it is?

It's not Neo's job to reconcile you with that piece of scripture, suffice it to say, he seems pretty reconciled to it.

And you don't seem likely to become a Jehovah's Witness.

Am I missing anything?

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Really Frank, don't you have enough Jehovah's Witnesses banging on your door as it is?

It's not Neo's job to reconcile you with that piece of scripture, suffice it to say, he seems pretty reconciled to it.

And you don't seem likely to become a Jehovah's Witness.

Am I missing anything?

Apparently you are missing the fact that Neo and I are having a discussion that we want to have.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I don't think Neo wants it as much as you do.

I think it might be a case of, "This again?"
"Yes this again."

Cue Robert Smith. (2.56 mins in)

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

There are SO many problems with the concept of an after life. I doubt many people who actually believe in an afterlife actually consider all the implications and consequences of it.

Not talking about afterlife I'm talking about life. Right here.

You wrote:

How does a soul get energy to function? In this life our bodies need energy to function.

The soul is not some ethereal entity separate from the body. The soul is you.You are a soul.

You wrote:

What if you end up in heaven but someone you deeply cared about ended up in hell?

No hell, either. Who's been feeding you these straw men? Send him a goat.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

The soul is not some ethereal entity separate from the body. The soul is you.You are a soul.

No hell, either. Who's been feeding you these straw men? Send him a goat.

You know these things, Neo...or are they merely the guesses of a religion you have adopted?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Soul = Hebrew nephesh = "breather" Animals are souls.

No consciousness after death. - Ecclesiastes 9:6 and others.

Lots of preconceived notions there Frank. You need to shoot a few down.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Specific terms I have heard but lack specific citations.
No problem. If 'abode of the dead' works for you, it works for me.

Apparently you have a difficult time mentally digesting the idea that the bible does not teach immortality of the soul. In that respect, you agree with Romeo Fabulini, Patches, and Squeakybro. Good work.

Sheol is used in this regard in Isaiah 14:9, Ezekiel 32:21, Proverbs 15:24, etc. Hades, in turn, appears in Luke 16:23, Revelation 1:18, Matthew 11:23, Luke 10:15, etc. The difficulty here is your inability to understand that your interpretation isn't the last word in "what the Bible teaches." You should try reading the whole Bible without your dogmatic preconceptions.

Instead of addressing the issue you only presented an association fallacy that you're using as an ad hominem as a reply.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

The word Tartarus is referred to twice in the Hebrew texts within the Septaguint,
Job 40:30 talks of Leviathon bringing joy to the Quadrupeds in tartarus
Job 41 24 (or 32 depending on the numbering scheme) speaks of the tartarus of the deep.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/28-iob-nets.pdf
Neither of these were representative of the Tartarus of mythology, rather used as words to describe a deep or low lying place.

Sure, words have various meanings. Young's literal translation of Job 41:32 reads, "After him he causeth a path to shine, One thinketh the deep to be hoary." The "the deep" is a translation of the Hebrew teh-home.

Young's translation of Job 40:20 is, "for food do mountains bear for him, And all the beasts of the field play there." The Septuagint translators used the word tartarus to translate the Hebrew sadeh, "field."

Smielyrius wrote:

Alternately take a look at Pauls use of the word Tartaroo, the reference was to angels that were incarcerated by the God of the old testament but they would not be held forever, it states that they were kept until judgement, which is interestingly parallel to the incarceration of the Greek Titans. No reference is made to humans or souls that would be kept there.

I am often wrong about tit bits and tats, I am open to correction.

Further along, Young's literal translation of 2 Peter 2:9 states, "The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep."

Other translations gloss this to mean that either the unrighteous will be kept under punishment until the day of judgement or the unrighteous will be kept until the day of judgement to be punished.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Soul = Hebrew nephesh = "breather" Animals are souls.

No consciousness after death. - Ecclesiastes 9:6 and others.

Lots of preconceived notions there Frank. You need to shoot a few down.

So you are saying they are merely the guesses of a religion you have adopted?

You have trouble being direct, Neo. It makes it difficult to understand you.

What could "Ecclasiastes" possibly have to do with whether or not you KNOW these things? "Ecclasiastes" is part of the guesses made by a religion you have adopted, right? So all I can surmise is that you are agreeing that you do not KNOW those things...but are merely taking the word of the religion. In other words, you are guessing that the guesses made by the religion about the REALITY...are correct.

Correct?

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@Frank Apisa,

And while you are at it, NEo...

...please tell me what Jesus was trying to say when he said those things I quoted up above?

Third time I've asked.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Answered here, Frank.
http://able2know.org/topic/51646-12#post-5983999
I guess you just didn't like the answer.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Stop trying to spoil the fun, Izzy. Laughing

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@Frank Apisa,

Not a guess, Frank. A definition. Some religious leaders may profit from the fears generated by doctrines of ethereal immortality. Not my fault, though.
I am bemuddled, however, by your apparent inability to make the connection between that doctrine and the serpent's claim at Genesis 3:4

It should be obvious to anyone with double digit IQ or above that when you're dead, you're dead. If any contrary hope were to be found, it would be reached at John 5:28-29, 1 Corrinthians 15:26, etc. Of course, you would have to believe the bible and I am unable to make that happen.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Answered here, Frank.
http://able2know.org/topic/51646-12#post-5983999
I guess you just didn't like the answer.

I responded to the "answer"...and indicated it was not an answer.

You are evading.

Why, if we all going to die, did Christ say those things.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Not a guess, Frank. A definition. Some religious leaders may profit from the fears generated by doctrines of ethereal immortality. Not my fault, though.
I am bemuddled, however, by your apparent inability to make the connection between that doctrine and the serpent's claim at Genesis 3:4

It should be obvious to anyone with double digit IQ or above that when you're dead, you're dead. If any contrary hope were to be found, it would be reached at John 5:28-29, 1 Corrinthians 15:26, etc. Of course, you would have to believe the bible and I am unable to make that happen.

That is what the religion you have adopted guesses.

So I am correct that you are guessing that the religion you have adopted is guessing correctly...rather than sharing what you KNOW.

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@neologist,

Yes, Izzy...stop trying to spoil the fun.

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Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

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