It seems to me that once again some are missing the bigger picture.
Once again it seems the US military has engaged in abuse of its prisoners by doing things they knew to be offensive to Muslims.
Muslims took the streets to protest over it. They have a right to protest the abuse and the disrespect shown to their religious book. We don't know if the protestors are murderers or not. They have a right to protest just as much as anyone else does.
Half the prisoners still have not been charged with anything so we don't know if they have murdered anyone. But even if they have it is still not ethical to use all the things they hold to value and destroy it in some kind of mental abuse.
Rice evidently agrees that the incidents if they took place are wrong and serious.
revel wrote:It seems to me that once again some are missing the bigger picture.
Can one assume that you are here to enlighten us?
Quote:Once again it seems the US military has engaged in abuse of its prisoners by doing things they knew to be offensive to Muslims.
The qualifier "seems" is needed here, as this allegation is not proven.
Quote:Muslims took the streets to protest over it. They have a right to protest the abuse and the disrespect shown to their religious book. We don't know if the protestors are murderers or not. They have a right to protest just as much as anyone else does.
There is little to quibble with in that paragraph, apart from once again noting that this is an allegation, and is not proven.
Quote:Half the prisoners still have not been charged with anything so we don't know if they have murdered anyone. But even if they have it is still not ethical to use all the things they hold to value and destroy it in some kind of mental abuse.
Standard objection, your contention is not proven.
Quote:Rice evidently agrees that the incidents if they took place are wrong and serious.
" . . . if they took place . . . " is the key to all of this.
Certainly the truth will not matter to rabble-rousers and those whom they cozen. However, at our distance from the events, we ought to exercise more caution in condemning people for an indicident which is alleged, and not proven.
Setanta, since I started out saying, "it seems" and ended with, "if they took place." I fail to see your point about exercising caution.
My point was people were going on and on about whether even if it true the fact that a religious book got trashed is worth a protest. I was saying that it was about more than that. (IF TRUE) It was about abuse at the hands of our military once again. (IF TRUE)
Yes, Revel, your point is well taken.
It has the value of:
Once again, it seems that some people are continuing to overreact by placing inflated value on the accusations of those with no credibility, if the reports are untrue.
If this didn't take place at all, the select rabble rousers, who prefer to believe anything negative about US forces do their country a great injustice in blindly falling in line with any and all US criicism, if that's what they're doing....
Looks as if Revel is very hot to buy it--while poking disclaimers throughout her post.
Rice knows what she's supposed to say.
Nobody's book is of more value than anyone else's.
Chrissee wrote:Mr L and Miss T strike again
Not everyone is confused about their identity. I can well imagine why you would think so, though.
Invest in a DSM-4.
ehBeth
Stop bullying Setanta.
<tee>
My esteemed freind and respected, frequent ideologic opposite, Setanta, wrote: ... Certainly this is an oversimplistic statement. But most people aren't given to a complex investigation of history and society. There is a great residue of resentment in the Muslim world, and the cynical opportunist can exploit it. That the majority of Muslims are decent people, who wish no harm to their neighbors i have no doubt. That rabble rousers without a scruple to their name are willing to exploit that substratum of longing and resentment is equally not to be doubted.
Well said. Yeah, I can buy that - readilly. I think in fact its pretty congruent with my own position. Perhaps we're saying the same thing, but from different perspective.
old europe wrote:Lash wrote:dlowan wrote:Your tone and attitude appear to mirror theirs.
Really? Who's murder have I committed? Who's murder have I danced about in the street? What horror have I clapped about in the street? Which of my daughters have I murdered or mutilated?
The equivocation is sick.
Weeeell, thinnnnk...
that it's not so sick at all. Just take your questions, and answer them... as a general "I" as in the western 'civilization' as opposed to a personal "I" as in Lash.
Quote:Lash's response~~No we won't. Because I would only subscribe to such a ridiculous comparison if I held each Muslim accountable for everything any Muslim did. I do not. Therefore, I certainly won't submit myself, or my country, to that standard.
After all, you're not talking about a specific Muslim, but about
all fanatic Muslims in general, right?
Quote: Lash's response~~No. I am talking about each individual Muslim who espouses hate, calls for murder, and applauds tragedy. If a thousands of these individuals mass, I am talking about each of them, and the group of them.
- Whose murder have we committed?
a lot. obviously. a hundred thousand civilians in Iraq, for example?
Whose murder have I danced about in the street?
What horror have we clapped about in the street?
replace 'in the street' with 'in public' or 'on TV'. talk about Uday and Qusay Hussein. a horror. and a celebrated one.
Quote:Lash's response~~Find the thread here about their murder. See who celebrated, and who did not.
.
- Which of our (sons and) daughters have we murdered or mutilated?
murdered and mutilated. or sent somewhere to be murdered and mutilated.
Quote:Lash's response~~No. Our service personnel are free to join the military--and we didn't start hostilities with those who hate us. I'm sorry to see you compare the two
.
I agree with you, Lash, the equivocation is sick. On a personal level. But, as a culture - are 'we' better than 'them'?
Quote:Yes. Our behavior is better than theirs. Our motives are better than theirs. The way we treat women and children is far better. Our tolerance is infinitely better. Our laws are infinitely fairer.
Hell yes. Our culture is better than theirs
.
Yet, I still hold great hope that modernization and new information will improve them, and make them people we can share the world with peacefully.
timberlandko wrote: Thats the way the military works. Nothing happens without forms in triplicate
hmmm, paper work seems to have been a bit of a problem over here as well
Quote:A separate report by the Italian government, released May 3, supports many of the U.S. report's findings, though it does diverge on some of the details. Of particular concern is the failure by U.S. forces to preserve and document the site for evidentiary purposes, as well as the U.S. Army's willful destruction of evidence. Preservation of the shooting site for photographs and analysis would have helped the U.S. military better understand the shooting and could have led to better civilian protections.
Equally disturbing was that U.S. forces manning the checkpoint destroyed duty logs from the unit that took part in the shooting. All evidence in such cases should be preserved so that lessons can be learned and incorporated to enhance civilian protections in future checkpoint situations. Destroying evidence might also amount to obstruction of justice with respect to disciplinary or criminal investigations. Human Rights Watch urged the U.S. military to preserve evidence relating to serious checkpoint incidents, particularly if there are civilian deaths.
They did it in triplicate, and then destroyed it?
I wouldn't put whacks and whacks of weight on this report, but it's consistent with other reports of missing reports/destroyed reports in the U.S. military.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/04/iraq10578.htm
Saying that if something happened in Gitmo, it would have been documented is well and good - if they kept the paperwork.
Quote: In Washington, the U.S. State Department said the allegations of desecration were "certainly serious and it would be important to have them be looked into."
"Obviously, the destruction of any kind of holy book, whether it's a Bible or a Koran or any other document like that, is something that's reprehensible and not in keeping with U.S. policies and practices," State Department spokesman Tom Casey said.
link
Not a good time (is there ever?) for this sort of allegation.
I just read through the Thread and it looks like the discussion's gone on several tangents. I'm glad Timber and Lash were willing to stand up for the Armed Forces. One of the reasons why they're vilified so much, I think, is because they're such easy targets for cheap shots.
General Myers has stated that he hasn't found any evidence of soldiers flushing the Koran down a toilet. He does, however, state that a Muslim detainee tore the Koran apart and used the pages to obstruct a toilet which resulted in a log entry. I'm sorry, Ehbeth, but the HRW article isn't proof that the Guantanamo logs were falsified. I'm not even sure if it's proof that logs for the Sgrena incident were destroyed.
What has been Newsweek's response thus far? Any contravening evidence? If Ehbeth is worried about false records, Newsweek can investigate the authenticity of the Military logs and interview the servicemen who were there, can't they? Have they shown any interest in following up?
After all, is typing an Anonymous FBI E-mail any harder than falsifying military records and the memories of [what?] a hundred Marines? Five-hundred? A thousand Army soldiers? How many people can vouch for the story. How many people can vouch for the Anonymous E-mail? They had to have more evidence than that in order to run this article, didn't they?
Also, I don't buy the argument that this is a matter of perceptions. Those type of arguments are always smokescreens one way or another. People can argue whether or not the actions of the US guards was wrong to their heart's content. For my part, flushing the Koran down a toilet doesn't count as a warcrime no matter how much people try to rationalize it. That's perception.
Did they flush the damn book down the toilet or not? Because if the accusations are false (and Unproven allegations are False allegations), then perceptions aren't an issue.
IMHO, there's very little substance to this story thus far. It's a list of allegations that, in the end, all ascribe to the credibility of Newsweek itself. Since nobody can prove a negative, it falls on Newsweek to prove the charges.
I think everyone knows this, of course. In fact, Ehbeth posted yet another allegation... Was it in the event that no evidence is found? (or worse, that a Muslim desecrated the Koran?)
I think it's safe to say that the US Military is the subject of innumerable accusations. It's unwise to address even a small fraction them because such an effort is futile. In fact, I think that's the point.
Polarstar,
I don't think it's a matter wrongdoing of the Army or whether flushing the Koran down a toilet is as a warcrime or not. I would seriously question whether that incident has happened at all. On the other hand, I could hardly say that it's totally impossible.
I think the matter is that such an incident, no, alleged incident, can trigger that kind of reaction. Not only in Iraq or Afghanistan, but in Gaza, Indonesia, Egypt, Pakistan, Syria and Saudi Arabia, too.
That's as far from the "falling dominos" as it can get.
In the absence of evidence there is no way that the US should proffer an apology for something which can't be proven. I think that would do nothing except provide "evidence" in the minds of those already enraged by the idea that the Qu'ran was descrated.
Polarstar it's more than just a "damn book" to Muslims. Whatever anyone else might think of the idea that the Qu'ran is a real object in Heaven the fact is that it's a central tenet in Islam. Although I've only just found out that fact I do know that there are protcols for, for example, handling the Qu'ran if one is not a Muslim. In court when it's used to swear in a witness it must be wrapped in a container so that it's not touched by a non-Muslim when presented to the Muslim witness.
Now I would assume that the fact of the reasons the Qu'ran is held in such esteem by Muslims would have been conveyed to the military. So, from that I assume that the interrogators in Guantanamo would know how to enrage someone they were interrogating. Of course why they would want to do that is a moot point. That they did it is unproven.
But as an allegation it has swept the Muslim world. And as an allegation it's an immensely powerful agitation tool. Even the firmest Muslim allies of the Coalition must be feeling pressure for proof that this didn't happen - and we know how difficult proving a negative is.
The allegation needs to be carefully and throughly investigated and its reasoning displayed clearly.
Old Europe,
I think I understand your point that this type of reaction should be expected from the Muslim World, but I don't ascribe to the belief that it should be put into overly subjective terms. Besides being patronizing, it's often so subjective to the Muslim Perception as to be outright fawning.
Some commentators have gone as far as to change the subject by claiming that American Christians would act thus if the situation were reversed.
It's a blood libel.
Everything from depicting Jesus using female vaginas, to Muslims desecrating every Christian site/symbol up to and including the Church of Bethlehem (via JW), to 9/11 (with worldwide Muslims dancing), to... and the list goes on. Whatever crimes a person might hope or wish the Christians would commit, it's insulting to derive a moral equivalence to the Islamic World.
Yet people pontificate and wax rhapsodic over how Holy the Koran is to Islam and how violently enraged worldwide Muslims are over .... What?
-one Koranic copy that may or may not have been flushed down a toilet? By a Muslim?
Hypocrisy: I don't like using the word because it's so often used in the wrong context against people who deserve better (like Racism), but in this case, no other word will suffice. The situation reeks of it.
goodfielder,
I know it's more than a book to the Muslims. My point in calling it a "damned book" (aside from frustration) is to bring attention to the fact that, in my perception, it remains a "damned book." If it were handed to me, I'd still think of it as a book. You're saying, I think, that I should show empathy towards Muslim sensibilities. By my reckoning, it's the Muslims who have to learn something approaching common decency. The problem is that no one is really willing to own up to this reality by standing up to them and their enablers. The Perception argument is lame because it implies no set standard, even as the person using the argument always insists on a standard.
Meanwhile, the US Flag is treated as a doormat, toilet paper, replacement kindling, and has probably found many other inventive uses that I don't know about yet in places I've never heard of.
The onus shouldn't be on the Military to investigate this for the reasons previously stated. By assuming that the Military is responsible for proving its own innocence, its detractors pull a nice trick of avoiding the necessity of proving guilt. Meanwhile any reasonable person knows that Muslims will seethe in self-righteous rage regardless of the flawed reasoning. Thus, trying to empathize with the Muslims is a moot point.
And again, Newsweek sits prettily avoiding all responsibility. Is anyone in this thread even insinuating that Media has the onus to prove its allegations in the first place? I'm not sure it's even been suggested.
Anyway, I'm going to bed. Take care Ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for the inputs.
You make some valid points, Polarstar.
For me religion is undiluted superstition but I try not to offend those who believe - whatever it is that believe. Well up to a point anyway. That point is where religion and secular law clash.
As for investigating it - I think there's no choice unfortunately. It has to be investigated. Psyops aren't just the province of the Coalition :wink:
