Muslims stage anti-US rallies over Koran abuse report

Lash wrote:

But--freedom

and self-determination

are not uniquely American culture,

or Western culture.

Freedom

and self-determination

are for everyone.

Yes, completely d'accord. Still, I sometimes think that we are too spoiled nowadays when it comes to, well, globalization. Just because it's possible to see a guy who's being interviewed in Jalalabad at the very same instance on TV in Europe or the States doesn't bring us together.

I think we still fail to understand so much about this culture, because we are so focused on our own culture. I have to admit that to me, the Koran is a - book. I don't know. Nobody ever told me otherwise. Well, goodfielder did, now, but I wouldn't know. Not at all.

And this is really embarrassing, too, isn't it? We're talking about the Middle East and Iraq and Afghanistan and whatnot A LOT, and maybe even more so here on A2K, and yet I have, seriously, no clue why thousands of people would take to the streets about a reported incident involving a... youknow.

Trying to say: people are not outraged because their freedom was infringed, or human rights were violated.... or because hundreds of Iraqis died because of the US aggressors during the last couple of days (that would make a nice motiv, wouldn't it?). No. Not the reason. I mean, HOW can you blow up such a non-event, unless it really is something to be outraged about?

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Is the Bible a ... book?

To me it is a story book, historical fiction.

To others it is much more. The thought that the Bible was not treated with respect - was treated as so much waste paper - as toilet paper - would cause absolute hysteria in many people. We know some of them on this board.

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I suspect "Korean" for "Koran" is an artifact of sloppy translation.

I also still suspect ther is more Media than activity here, though I might be wrong. Developments over the next few days will tell. Once fanned to flame, irrational hatred often fuels itself. We shall see. I expect we shall see this fade.

I see your point, goodfielder, re proving something didn't happen. I imagine in this case, however, every minute of every day's mission-specific activity - all of it down to the smallest detail - at Gitmo not only is logged, but is multiply, independently logged. Thats the way the military works. Nothing happens without forms in triplicate Rolling Eyes

And as I said earlier, there's no reason to expect some folks will accept any evidence which does not support their own preferances and prejudices. Thats the way people work.

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timberlandko wrote:

Thats the way the military works. Nothing happens without forms in triplicate

As was so often pointed out when the full Bush and Kerry records were being sought - this is not always the case. A former Abuzz poster, who continues to post at another site I visit has recently (within the past 12 months) retired from the military. Were his records in order for retirement? Why, of course not.

As a poster on this board can attest (if he's in the mood to) to from his time in the military, paperwork can be made to say almost anything.

It's not to do particularly with U.S. military or government - it's a fact of bureaucracy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This particular issue may turn out to be a blip or not. <still trying to figure out why Newsweek seems to figure so strongly for timber - do they control the international media?>

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Lash wrote:

Destroying books is nothing. People do it all the time. The inability to deal with a burnt book is cretinous.

To murder over it--or absolve those who do--is beneath contempt.

It remains shocking to see how maladaptive and mentally bankrupt those people are. They need a different planet.

Exactly their view of us - and much of what we do.

I agree with your estimate in many ways in relation to all fundamentalist nonsenses - christian, Islam, Jewish - but not your tone.

Your tone and attitude appear to mirror theirs.

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Come on, ehBeth.

You know there wouldn't be any psychotic reaction to burning a Bible. Some people would be mad--that'd be it.

They burn the US flag. Everything I care about is burned and defaced on a regular basis.

You know you cannot accurately equate the two reactions.

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Lash wrote:

Come on, ehBeth.

You know there wouldn't be any psychotic reaction to burning a Bible. Some people would be mad--that'd be it.

They burn the US flag. Everything I care about is burned and defaced on a regular basis.

You know you cannot accurately equate the two reactions.

That is fortunately true. I doubt that the bible stuff would still be so if we lived in a christian theocracy formed by the current religious right.

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Okay, question for everyone....

Did anybody actually read the Newsweek article? Is this the article we're talking about:

Quote:

Gitmo: SouthCom Showdown

source

???

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Lash wrote:

Come on, ehBeth.

You know there wouldn't be any psychotic reaction to burning a Bible. Some people would be mad--that'd be it.

They burn the US flag. Everything I care about is burned and defaced on a regular basis.

You know you cannot accurately equate the two reactions.

That is fortunately true. I doubt that the bible stuff would still be so if we lived in a christian theocracy formed by the current religious fundamentalist right.

We have quite a long history of tolerance of diversity and challenge, but with a very bloody history behind that hard won tolerance.

(Sorry about that weird double post thing!)

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Lash wrote:

You know you cannot accurately equate the two reactions.

After speaking to someone recently who's met one of the board's more errrr rabidly Christian members, I believe that I can most definitely equate the reactions.

It also bears out from my experience in travelling in a couple of regions in the U.S. in the past 3 or 4 years. Hysteria about the Bible is a polite way of phrasing it.

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Timber said that

Timber wrote:

Newsweek should be called upon, officially, to either corroborate their report, or to publish retraction and apology. If, as I very much suspect will prove to be the case, there is no corroboration - if the purported incident turns out never to have happened, Newsweek also should be very sternly sanctioned - as in substantial monetary fine.

So what if the report stated the truth? Should the Army be called upon? Should the Army be very sternly sanctioned - as in substantial monetary fine?

wondering....

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dlowan wrote:

Lash wrote:
Destroying books is nothing. People do it all the time. The inability to deal with a burnt book is cretinous.

To murder over it--or absolve those who do--is beneath contempt.

It remains shocking to see how maladaptive and mentally bankrupt those people are. They need a different planet.

Exactly their view of us - and much of what we do.

I agree with your estimate in many ways in relation to all fundamentalist nonsenses - christian, Islam, Jewish - but not your tone.

Your tone and attitude appear to mirror theirs.

Really? Who's murder have I committed? Who's murder have I danced about in the street? What horror have I clapped about in the street? Which of my daughters have I murdered or mutilated?

The equivocation is sick.

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I agree with ehBeth. There are people who would absolutely go berserk if they heard credible evidence that some Muslims had desecrated a Bible. Another thing: even for non-fundamentalist Muslims, the notion that an "infidel" disrespected and desecrated the Q'uran in so flagrant a fashion, would be seen as a mortal insult. He wouldn't even have to believe in Allah, for Pete's sake. An atheist born into a Muslim family would be outraged. It's not about religion. It's about cultural disrespect.

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old europe wrote:

So what if the report stated the truth? Should the Army be called upon? Should the Army be very sternly sanctioned - as in substantial monetary fine?

wondering....

Pretty silly to fine The Army. However, should the fault be found in fact to lie there, severest appropriate sanction would be warranted for those responsible not only for the actions but for the command failures which permitted such to happen.

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timberlandko wrote:

old europe wrote:
So what if the report stated the truth? Should the Army be called upon? Should the Army be very sternly sanctioned - as in substantial monetary fine?

wondering....

Pretty silly to fine The Army. However, should the fault be found in fact to lie there, severest appropriate sanction would be warranted for those responsible not only for the actions but for the command failures which permitted such to happen.

Tu quoque, Timber.

So if it wouldn't be the Army but only those responsible, than it probably wouldn't be Newsweek, but the journalist responsible to be called upon, right?

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Who will say Christians would react equally to Muslims in this situation?

Just because they think someone is an infidel, and their book is of inflated value does not lend one dab of credence to their righteous indignation.
Why in hell do you people insist on acting as though there is any value to this stupid outrage?

The rhetoric in his thread is sounding as though you feel their response is justified.

To do so, you'd have to agree with them that we are all inferior to them, and their book is of supreme value.

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I think you're missing the point, Lash. It's not about what "they" think of us or of their holy book. It's about ignorant, insensitive, impolite behavior on our part, if the stories are, indeed, true. Their response might not be "justified" but it is understandable. And their feeling of resentment is certainly justified.

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Huh? Who is saying it is justified?

Some of us are objecting to the rabidness of the reaction, which, as I said, mirrors in tone that being castigated.

Of course there is a difference between rabid tone and rabid action - but not such a big chasm as some of you are trying to paint.

Bloody bookends.

Edit:

I agree that there are people stirring up these riots and that is awful.

By the same token, I hope the US staff were not dumb and nasty enough to desecrate their damned book. That is mean-spirited if done - and bound to get out.

It would be good to see some really objective evidence about whether it was done or not.

I can well see the attractivenesss of it to interrogators.

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Lash wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Your tone and attitude appear to mirror theirs.

Really? Who's murder have I committed? Who's murder have I danced about in the street? What horror have I clapped about in the street? Which of my daughters have I murdered or mutilated?

The equivocation is sick.

Weeeell, thinnnnk...

that it's not so sick at all. Just take your questions, and answer them... as a general "I" as in the western 'civilization' as opposed to a personal "I" as in Lash.
After all, you're not talking about a specific Muslim, but about all fanatic Muslims in general, right?

- Whose murder have we committed?
a lot. obviously. a hundred thousand civilians in Iraq, for example?

Whose murder have I danced about in the street?
What horror have we clapped about in the street?

replace 'in the street' with 'in public' or 'on TV'. talk about Uday and Qusay Hussein. a horror. and a celebrated one.

- Which of our (sons and) daughters have we murdered or mutilated?

murdered and mutilated. or sent somewhere to be murdered and mutilated.

I agree with you, Lash, the equivocation is sick. On a personal level. But, as a culture - are 'we' better than 'them'?

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If their feeling was only resentment, there would be no problem.

But, I'm glad you do reserve judgement on our involvement.

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Muslims stage anti-US rallies over Koran abuse report

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