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Rice: Gun Rights Important As Free Speech

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:04 pm
Intrepid wrote:
1. Does the historical evidence support the conclusion that the Second Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to possess firearms?


Yes.



Intrepid wrote:
2. If the Second Amendment does create an individual right, how broad is the right? Does it include the right to possess arms that would be useful to a militia today--hand grenades, rocket launchers, etc.? Or does it create only a right to possess arms that would have been used by a militia in 1791--muskets? Or is the right answer somewhere between these extremes?


A noted before, it doesn't create the right. It protects a right that already existed.

The right covers modern militia weapons. But some militias get by on automatic rifles with AP ammo, so the right could be limited to exclude things like grenades and rocket launchers.



Intrepid wrote:
3. The Second Amendment speaks of the right to bear arms. Does this suggest, for example, that there is no right to possess weapons that could not be carried, such as cannons?


Maybe, but probably not.

A more likely limitation would be whether the weapon was managed by a single person, or whether it was a crew-served weapon.

I base that on the early militia law, which had militiamen who were cavalry care for their own horse and equipment (can't carry a horse, but it is operated by an individual). But they did not require the same of artillerymen, and cannon were crew-served.



Intrepid wrote:
4. If the underlying concern that inspired the Second Amendment--fear of an abusive federal government oppressing states and their citizens--no longer exists, should that affect how we interpret the Amendment?


Can't legitimately change your interpretation unless the amendment is amended.

Or unless you have a realistic argument how your new interpretation is more in line with original intent than the old interpretation.



Intrepid wrote:
5. What is the argument for choosing what provisions of the Bill of Rights we will give full effect?


None whatsoever, so far as I know. They ALL need to be given full effect.



Intrepid wrote:
6. If the test for whether a provision of the Bill of Rights is incorporated into the 14th Amendment is whether the right in question is "fundamental to the American scheme of justice" what conclusion should we come to with respect to the right to keep and bear arms?


Don't know. So far as I'm concerned, the fourteenth amendment incorporated all individual rights, and I consider any court ruling to the contrary to be anti-Constitution.



Intrepid wrote:
7. Which of the following regulations of firearms is constitutional?: (1) an age restriction, (2) a four-day waiting period for purchase of a firearm, (3) a ban on the carrying of concealed weapons.


Age restriction might be OK, unless it was unreasonable.

The problem with waiting periods is that they are only designed to make it a hassle to exercise your right to buy a gun. I'd say that makes them unconstitutional.

In addition, the anti-gun people plan to gradually lengthen the waiting period until it is at least a month, if not a year.

A ban on concealment is OK so long as people can carry their gun in the open without being hassled.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:05 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I am not anti gun and agree that people have the right to bear arms...but.....as important than free speech? A stretch I think.


Not a stretch at all. If we lose either one we are nothing but serfs.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:08 pm
dlowan wrote:
Lol. Only evidence would be if our crime rate wer a lot higher, without these stupid guns. It isn't.


As I recall, the robbery rate there went WAY up.



dlowan wrote:
And we KILL far fewer of each other per capita - which is the major point.

So - we get no increase in crime and less people dead.


There was a small drop in killings, but it wasn't earth shattering.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:15 pm
physgrad wrote:
Anyways, equating guns to freedom of expression seems rather a stretch to me.


Then you don't understand our freedom.

All our rights are of vital importance.



physgrad wrote:
Plus as far as I can understand nobody is seriously questioning the first amendment


The ACLU's had to defend it before.



physgrad wrote:
I'm pretty conservative on most issues, but guns are a sore point. When someone uses a gun to kill, he is using it for the purpose it is made for. Its not like a driving accident. Cars kill people when misused, guns kill when used as intended ..(for the sceptic..one doesn't hunt game with an automatic)..


I'm not sure what your comment about not hunting with automatics has to do with anything.

I presume you meant full autos. Lots of hunters use semi autos. But what does hunting have to do with any of this?
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:20 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
The Second Amendment is written with the qualification that as long as a well regulated militia IS necessary the right to bear arms shall not be infringed,


Balderdash! There is no requirement hat a militia be necessary before people can exercise their right.

And besides, the Constitution requires that there be a militia. Thus, legally, a militia is always necessary.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:22 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
You may disagree with what Joe wrote, but it's not "hogwash." Well, I guess you can call it that if you want, but it's bogus to say that no one truly believes that interpretation to be valid.

Maybe even hogwash...



I'd say very few people believe such an absurdity.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:35 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
There has been a lot of talk lately about reading the Constitution and how to do it. Some think we need to read it in the originalist sense, I concur.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The second half of this Article, which every gunsucker er slinger loves, is clearly an independent sentence. It can stand alone, but it does not.


Oh yes it does.



Joe Nation wrote:
It is preceded by a qualifying, yes, declarative, but still, qualifying clause. A well regulated militia implys many and several things:

That the right to bear arms depends upon the necessity of that well-regulated militia.


You seem to have gotten away from your comment about sticking to what was intended.

What you propose is to interpret it in exactly the opposite way from what was intended.



Joe Nation wrote:
I will leave it to you to decide what well-regulated might mean, actual membership in a organized armed group which stands ready to provide security for the free state comes to my mind.


Another thing comes to mind, for those of us who have actually researched the subject:

"Well-regulated" referred to a militia that had trained to the extent that they fought as one coordinated unit instead of as a bunch of individuals.



Joe Nation wrote:
Good to hear from you, fishin. I don't think this is a new twist. I think there was a SCOTUS ruling back in the 30's based on this thinking. (The decision concerned the ownership of saw-offed shotguns, who could possess them (no one) and what State regulation was Constitutional. (Any State can regulate the ownership of weapons. Wyatt Earp could prevent the carrying of weapons in Dodge City. The Federal Government can regulate the interstate transfer of said ownership. I'll look it up)


For starters, the law didn't say that no one could have sawed off shotguns.



Joe Nation wrote:
any citizen may propose to change the very foundation of it's life politic. I am not even proposing that, I am saying that the Second Amendment ought to be read as it is.


No, you propose that it means the exact opposite of what it says.



Joe Nation wrote:
The right of the people to bear arms rests upon the need of a regulated militia to maintain security for the Free State


No it doesn't.



Joe Nation wrote:
and is not an individual right


Yes it is.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 04:45 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
The body of Constitutional history research leads in the other direction. From the records of the dicsussions on the debates when the Amendment was drafted and ratified and the research by people like the Hon. Joseph Story it is fairly clear that the Amendment was intended as an individual right.


True, all true. It was what they thought and it might have been what they intended, but it's not what they wrote in the US Constitution.


Yes it is.



Joe Nation wrote:
What they wrote clearly qualifies that pre-existing right to bear arms to be a function of the Free State and not a wholly individual right as pertains the citizens of the USA.


No it doesn't.



Joe Nation wrote:
That's why States can and do license gun owners, require carry permits or dis-allow the practice altogether, require gun shops to maintain records of sales and prosecute the ones who don't (See the recent Sniper cases).


That would either be because they are doing something that doesn't violate the right, or because they are flagrantly violating the right.

The fact that the government temporarily gets away with violating a right does not "change the right" in any way.



Joe Nation wrote:
Remember Uncle Joe's sixteen semi-automatic and 6000 rounds of ammo. Do you live in a State where it's legal to have such a cache?


That'd be all 50 states, I believe.



Joe Nation wrote:
I know. American just want to be left alone. But we keep shooting ourselves and each other at a rate which is approaching the number of auto fatalities. 30,000 gun deaths to about 40,000 auto deaths, but a helluva lot more people come in contact with cars then with guns. So, I asked this before, why do so many people end up dead from guns in America?


Funny. If we banned cars, it would actually provide a significant reduction in deaths, unlike gun bans.

But I bet you don't care to ban cars.



Joe Nation wrote:
The First Amendment, exercised here, is far more important the SA


Your dislike of American freedom is noted.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 05:30 pm
All I want for Christmas is a .50....

http://www.50bmgstore.com/images/Barrett82A1.jpg
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 06:08 pm
cjhsa wrote:
All I want for Christmas is a .50....

http://www.50bmgstore.com/images/Barrett82A1.jpg


A fine home defense weapon.

Tis your fundamental right to have one if you want.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 06:57 pm
A fine home defense weapon, especially if you really hate your neighbors for about a mile in any direction. Wink
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 07:05 pm
I had a roommate once (for two weeks only, then I ran away fast as I could), who firmly defended the right to bear arms. He owned a few guns. He also believed firmly that every American citizen should also have the right to shoot any Mexican or Chinese at sight as they are "polluting the American race". He was most obviously not ok - a strange psychotic xenophobic weirdo. Yet he had guns. That's the scariest thought to me - I wonder how many like him are roaming around, just because 'it's the constitutional right' and generally guns are so easy to get in the States.
As for domestic defense - unfortunatelly, statistic shows that in 66% of cases of a break in where the person owes a weapon for self-defense, the weapon is used against him or her. Often with the tragic ending. Does not really convince me as a good argument for owning guns.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:25 pm
cjhsa wrote:
A fine home defense weapon, especially if you really hate your neighbors for about a mile in any direction. Wink


I was thinking of its utility when home invasion teams use body armor.

Nothing a human can wear will ever stop an ordinary full metal jacket round from a .50 BMG. Don't even need AP ammo.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:25 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
As for domestic defense - unfortunatelly, statistic shows that in 66% of cases of a break in where the person owes a weapon for self-defense, the weapon is used against him or her.


I question the accuracy of those statistics.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:28 pm
It's from a Public Administration textbook
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:28 pm
... I'll look it up, but not now I'm afraid. Gotta work.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:42 pm
OK, couldn't resist... it's from Cochran and Mayer: American Public Policy, chapter on Crime and Criminal Justice: Dilemmas of Social Control.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 09:44 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
OK, couldn't resist... it's from Cochran and Mayer: American Public Policy, chapter on Crime and Criminal Justice: Dilemmas of Social Control.


Couldn't find it online, but I'm sure I could find a couple dozen flaws in their study if I saw it.

These kinds of studies crop up now and then.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 09:52 pm
I'll take my chances with my weapons instead of begging for mercy. Thank you very much.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 10:55 pm
cjhsa wrote:
I'll take my chances with my weapons instead of begging for mercy. Thank you very much.


This raises a good point: Even if someone manages to show that guns are more of a problem than a solution, it is still imperative that we be allowed to have them. It is a matter of freedom.
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