God is Irrelevant!

neologist wrote:

What makes you think God would change his mind?

What makes you think that God wouldn't change his mind?

That is my whole point.

A society's members determine the morality of a situation. Their judgement is the one that counts.

If I may fredjones,

Debra, I think his point is that you made that choice yourself, including your choice to believe...regardless of wether or not there is, in fact, a god.

Am I right fred?

Just thought you might be getting tired of saying it..

I think that what we have is consensual relative morality, where everyone agrees to choose the same or a similar morality to others. If there were true relative morality on an individual basis, society would indeed collapse.

As social animals, we see a trend towards conformity. We want to conform. We want to be more like everyone else or the ideal image of a human being.

Perhaps the morales are set by the strong and the weak conform to them. That is perhaps what society is all about and what keeps society intact.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

I think that what we have is consensual relative morality, where everyone agrees to choose the same or a similar morality to others. If there were true relative morality on an individual basis, society would indeed collapse.

As social animals, we see a trend towards conformity. We want to conform. We want to be more like everyone else or the ideal image of a human being.

Perhaps the morales are set by the strong and the weak conform to them. That is perhaps what society is all about and what keeps society intact.

Very well put, and much more concise than I could have hoped for, Wolf.

Debra_Law wrote:

My God made me that way . . . and I haven't fallen victim to the false and idiotic teachings of the Bible.

God is relevant; the bible is irrelevant.

Have a look at these two passages:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 wrote:

{16} All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, {17} so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 1:21 wrote:

{21} For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is the inspired word of God. I still do not see how you think God is relevant and that the Bible is not. The Bible is an instruction manual of sorts for our lives. One cannot say that the Bible is fallible since it was written by man. Do you think that if a mistake were made that God would sit idly by and just let everyone learn something the wrong way? Of course not. If you are asked to write something by God, you are not going to mess up and get away with it.

fredjones wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

I think that what we have is consensual relative morality, where everyone agrees to choose the same or a similar morality to others. If there were true relative morality on an individual basis, society would indeed collapse.

As social animals, we see a trend towards conformity. We want to conform. We want to be more like everyone else or the ideal image of a human being.

Perhaps the morales are set by the strong and the weak conform to them. That is perhaps what society is all about and what keeps society intact.

Very well put, and much more concise than I could have hoped for, Wolf.

ooo boy. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Boring.

Sounds like the robots again! Robotic society!

Conformity is morality? I don't buy it.

So if your society dictates slavery & human sacrifice & cannibalism, you just conform and say that is morality?

You can have that world. Not a world I want to live in.

Sounds like an insane 1984 Orwellian World.

fredjones wrote:

neologist wrote:

What makes you think God would change his mind?

What makes you think that God wouldn't change his mind?

That would necessitate a change in a fundamental assertion about God: His name in the bible, literally translated, means "He who causes to become". The purpose He set forth in Genesis will come to be, the rebellion of Satan notwithstanding.

Well, in your view, why does your opinion have anything to do with what is moral?

In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings.

If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.

I put this in another thread, but I soon realized that it should have its own... If you disagree, please explain (with care) why. Here goes:

-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.

-Until death (if ever), we can have no measure of certainty regarding the contents and intents of god's mind.

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell.

-If our actions have no intentional bearing on our final destination, it would only be rational to act morally in response to proximal pressures, not eventual punishments.

-If morality, as used by people, is based on proximal issues, not eventual, morality as we know it is not dependent on god's wishes (which can change without warning).

-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.

I expect you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong.

fredjones wrote:

Well, in your view, why does your opinion have anything to do with what is moral?

Thank you!

Because I say it does.

And you are the same! Pot...meet kettle.

You are saying you know what morality is and others don't. BS.

Thats just for your little world.

And you figure if you get the majority to agree with you, you are right.

You are defining Morality as a popularity contest.?
Whatever is pop is right?

Why does what a lynch-mob of slave owners have to do with what is moral?

Why does a society that decided it is good to be cannibal mean that it is moral?

Just because a society decided human sacrifice is moral, it is moral?

Why does a group of idjits have any more power to decide what is moral than an individual ?

Who are you or anyone to decide what my morals should be?

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

fredjones wrote:

I put this in another thread, but I soon realized that it should have its own... If you disagree, please explain (with care) why. Here goes:

-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.

-Until death (if ever), we can have no measure of certainty regarding the contents and intents of god's mind.

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell.

-If our actions have no intentional bearing on our final destination, it would only be rational to act morally in response to proximal pressures, not eventual punishments.

-If morality, as used by people, is based on proximal issues, not eventual, morality as we know it is not dependent on god's wishes (which can change without warning).

-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.

I expect you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong.

Ok, perhaps this will clarify my stance.

I agree with all the above.

The only thing is, what you consider "moral" I consider "immoral." It is bad what you are doing and you will be put in jail, and most likely go to the bad place.

Don't worry, we decided what is moral for you. If you disagree, please don't say anything about it, you really are immoral you know, however moral you think you are.

And please note this has nothing to do with god. We, the popular people in power, have decided you are immoral.

Well, if you think about it, I am saying that others and I combine our opinions to determine morality. You are the one who is saying that morality is determined by your god. What happens if we don't agree with you? Oh yeah, we're wrong you're right, because god is on your side.

The discussion was much more tempered and non-confrontational before you chanced upon us here, em.

fredjones wrote:

Well, if you think about it, I am saying that others and I combine our opinions to determine morality. You are the one who is saying that morality is determined by your god. What happens if we don't agree with you? Oh yeah, we're wrong you're right, because god is on your side.

Dude,

Hello!

I have never mentioned God!

You are the one that keeps yapping about God!

You are so mad at God or something you can't see that I am not even talking about God.

How many ways must I put it? Forget God for a moment. I am not talking about God. No Bible. No Quran. Okay.

I am saying you have no basis to decide morality.

You say the choice is either God or your bizarre popularity notion of morality.

I say there is a third choice and fourth and fifth and more choice, which includes neither of the above.

Hey extra medium,

I see your point and I agree with you.

fredjones is just making a new God.

His God is society. They worship society.

Hmmm...looks like he is playing God too. I guess his God is Society and himself.

Oh well, I don't believe in any God anyway, so I don't have to worry about it.

Anyway, I do get your point, even if he doesn't: ie:

Who died and made him the morality God? Weird. Like a cult.

Anyway hang in there EM, I for one enjoy your posts!