Children don't have sex.
fredjones wrote:Children don't have sex.
fred; I see by your profile you are a student. Let me guess that you don't have kids. Our society is to the point that now very young children have sexual experiences. Whether you think it is prudent to protect them from such is up to you, of course. You should however be aware.
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The point is that Reason should trump the Bible.
The point is that Reason should trump the Bible. We should function based on principles, not some book written thousands of years ago. If thou shalt not kill, it is because we should value life, not because we should do whatever the Bible says. Most of the people who received the most benefit from the Bible were in the past, and relatively uneducated. In this day and age, we are taught to think for ourselves. We have these big brains, why not use them?
I'm using the Bible as an example, because I am most familiar with it. The argument, however, extends to all religions. Whether or not we are going to our specific heavens or hells is irrelevant. We should be moral people regardless of whether there is a god or not.
First post... whohoo! (be nice)
How do we know what is moral if everyone is making this attempt on their own? There needs to be some sort of moral standard, because morals cease to be morals when they are defined by every individual. Our ethics define what we believe is true (morally good) or false (morally bad); therefore, if if ethics is what defines truth, it cannot be found in a multitude of sources (such as ourselves).
And building off of this argument, there has to be some being besides us humans, that is morally good enough to define what is right and wrong. It certainly cannot be one of us because...
1) we naturally act in our own self-interest, which is not always morally good
2) everyone is different--there are too many of us to say that we can decide what is morally good for ourselves, because that takes away the exclusiveness of truth
So my point is (in the red), that morals have to be found in someone who is completely separate and unique from the human race, and that being has to be morally good. We know that God is morally good (and i know you will respond against this statement) and therefore we should base our morals upon his standards.
fredjones wrote:.
The point is that Reason should trump the Bible.
Aye, there's the rub. You assume that the bible is contrary to reason. I say it is not. How could two people from the Pacific Northwest (of all places, the center of universal enlightenment) and beer drinkers at that, come to such mutually exclusive conclusions?. I'm going to stick my neck out and say the conclusions are only exclusive because our premises are not equal. Now I'm going to make my broken record sound:
The main reason people reject the bible is not the fault of either God or of the bible. Rather it is the fault of power hungry clergy who have for centuries used their position to dominate mankind for their own ends.
And it turns out we don't disagree as much as you think.The Bible can be wrong, and in fact in some cases it can be proven wrong. Reason, when used correctly, cannot be wrong.
Have you ever read 'The Lord of the Flies"? That is a prime example of what happens when there are no morals. There is nothing to base rules on or anything but by what the kids make up. Everyone did what they thought was right, and look how it turned out. I don't mean to ruin the book for you if you haven't read it, but the book can prove a good point. These kids had no morals and eventually were trying to kill each other off. One 'tribe' resorted to burning down the entire island to get one person. Maybe I'm getting a little off the point, but my point is without moral things definitely go wrong. And I bet yah, If one of them had a religious background or had a bible or whatnot that book(lord of the flies) could have ended up much differently.
This book proves that when a bunch of people do whatever they think is right and set up their own morals, it doesn't work out. We NEED that higher being to govern us, who knows what's right and wrong.
fredjones wrote:The Bible can be wrong, and in fact in some cases it can be proven wrong. Reason, when used correctly, cannot be wrong.
I contend the bible will always be found true when examined carefully. We need to discuss that further when our brains come back
First post... whohoo! (be nice)
Our greatest critics are often our greatest allies in the search for understanding.
How do we know what is moral if everyone is making this attempt on their own? There needs to be some sort of moral standard, because morals cease to be morals when they are defined by every individual.
Our ethics define what we believe is true (morally good) or false (morally bad); therefore, if if ethics is what defines truth, it cannot be found in a multitude of sources (such as ourselves).
And building off of this argument, there has to be some being besides us humans, that is morally good enough to define what is right and wrong. It certainly cannot be one of us because...
1) we naturally act in our own self-interest, which is not always morally good
2) everyone is different--there are too many of us to say that we can decide what is morally good for ourselves, because that takes away the exclusiveness of truth[/color]
So my point is (in the red), that morals have to be found in someone who is completely separate and unique from the human race, and that being has to be both morally good and superior to all. We know that God is both morally good superior (and i know you will respond against this statement) and therefore we should base our morals upon his standards.
