1
   

God is Irrelevant!

 
 
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 01:18 pm
I put this in another thread, but I soon realized that it should have its own... If you disagree, please explain (with care) why. Here goes:

-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.

-Until death (if ever), we can have no measure of certainty regarding the contents and intents of god's mind.

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell.

-If our actions have no intentional bearing on our final destination, it would only be rational to act morally in response to proximal pressures, not eventual punishments.

-If morality, as used by people, is based on proximal issues, not eventual, morality as we know it is not dependent on god's wishes (which can change without warning).

-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.

I expect you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong. Wink
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 7,371 • Replies: 179
No top replies

 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 06:22 am
Quote:
-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.


Right.

Quote:
-Until death (if ever), we can have no measure of certainty regarding the contents and intents of god's mind.

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell.



Our insight to the mind of our creator is in the bible. He sets standards for us to live by.

Quote:
-If morality, as used by people, is based on proximal issues, not eventual, morality as we know it is not dependent on god's wishes (which can change without warning).


Morality, without a basis, would only be one man's word, against anothers...who's right? The ten commandments are not ridiculous and if we just followed them, we would be in much better shape.

Quote:
-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.


Just because you believe in God, that doesn't make you any more moral then the next guy. An understanding of the scriptures is required to have a good idea of what God expects of us.
Quote:
If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.
I don't think he changes his mind, the laws change with the changing humans.

Quote:
-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.


Wrong.

Quote:
I expect you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong.


Smile
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 06:59 am
you keep talking about morality- but this cannot exist without God.

If there is no God then i can rob a bank or do whatever i want- i don't care if i hurt anyone else.
0 Replies
 
MiTHoS
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 08:22 am
As Thunderrunner said, our insight into God's mind is the bible. It tells us what we need to do. We can even tell where we stand with God by it. We can tell how well we're doing by how well we're following or not following it.

Also, as Raheel said without God there is no morallity. I could do whatever the flip I wanted. I'd do anything I could to get money, kill whoever I wanted b/c they ticked me off. Nothing would matter without at the least religion. I think the world would be in total anarchy.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 08:26 am
I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods. How do you think societies without gods survive?
0 Replies
 
MiTHoS
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 08:42 am
Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.

As for countries without god's, name one. Then we'll talk, of course there are ones who ban the practice, but that doesn't mean there are people who believe in some sort of religion.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 09:54 am
Quote:
Morality exists just fine without gods. How do you think societies without gods survive?


Hmmm...let me think of a good example...oh yeah, Hitler! His principles were based on the ideas of survival of the fittest. Look how well society got along with him around.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 10:35 am
M!THº§ wrote:
Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.


I don't believe in God. If I am having a barbeque with friends, no law holds me back from eating all the food. Yet I don't eat all the food, because I am a moral person and I do not want to cause harm to my friends.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 11:16 am
agrote wrote:
M!THº§ wrote:
Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.


I don't believe in God. If I am having a barbeque with friends, no law holds me back from eating all the food. Yet I don't eat all the food, because I am a moral person and I do not want to cause harm to my friends.


Oh my! I have to buy extra food to make sure I can't eat it all. HEHE.

But seriously, what fredjones is saying sounds like moral relativism or social formulism. Am I right? Who can blame those who look at religion with the 'thousand yard stare". Can you think of any war or crime that has not been perpetrated by the clergy?

Here I am saying that there is a God and the Bible is his word. I say it in spite of the abominations clearly evident in the history of Judeo-Christianity. I submit it is not God's fault these things have occurred. Could be I'm crazy - but I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 11:19 am
BTW, thunder. Hitler thought he was establishing the thousand year 'reich' referred to in the book of Revelation.
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 11:55 am
why do you act morally? (this is to all atheists)
0 Replies
 
Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 04:41 pm
Re: Eorl
Eorl wrote:
I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

Yes, you have morals (and it's a good thing that you do too). Morals, however, require a strong foundation. What is your foundation for your morals? I imagine that a combination of your parent(s)/guardian(s) guidance and you're teachers have established these morals in you. However, where did they get their morals from? You can say that their parents taught them, etc., but morals didn't just appear. They are linked all the way back to the word of God (the Bible).

Human beings are natural savages. A strong foundation for morals are necessary. If one poses the question "Why is doing this immoral?", "because it is" is not an acceptable answer. Morals need foundations. Every action (or nonaction) requires a reason. If I had no reason to uphold the morals I live by, then why should I? Why shouldn't I pursue my own interests regardless of what other people say?

Eorl wrote:
How do you think societies without gods survive?

Give me an existing, successful (i.e. peaceful) society whose history does not link back to laws established by God and/or the Bible. Any society can claim that they are godless, yet every society originated from historical times, back toward the division at the Tower of Babel.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:06 pm
My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

You don't rob a bank, because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

I am not stating the way things should be, I am merely attempting to explain the way things are

Yey! I got some intellectual juices flowing. Smile

EDIT: I added the comma in the Proximal sentence. Amazing how that changes the meaning. I do usually try to proofread before posting.. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:09 pm
Re: Eorl
00 Agent Kid wrote:
Eorl wrote:
I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

Yes, you have morals (and it's a good thing that you do too). Morals, however, require a strong foundation. What is your foundation for your morals? I imagine that a combination of your parent(s)/guardian(s) guidance and you're teachers have established these morals in you. However, where did they get their morals from? You can say that their parents taught them, etc., but morals didn't just appear. They are linked all the way back to the word of God (the Bible).

Human beings are natural savages. A strong foundation for morals are necessary. If one poses the question "Why is doing this immoral?", "because it is" is not an acceptable answer. Morals need foundations. Every action (or nonaction) requires a reason. If I had no reason to uphold the morals I live by, then why should I? Why shouldn't I pursue my own interests regardless of what other people say?

Eorl wrote:
How do you think societies without gods survive?

Give me an existing, successful (i.e. peaceful) society whose history does not link back to laws established by God and/or the Bible. Any society can claim that they are godless, yet every society originated from historical times, back toward the division at the Tower of Babel.

I think this is the scripture you are searching for: : "For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused." (Romans 2: 14, 15)
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:13 pm
M!THº§ wrote:
Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.


Most religion was based on the moral laws already in place. Without morality there can be no group structure. There can, however, be group structure without religion. Humans were around for thousands of years before organized religion.

M!THº§ wrote:

As for countries without god's, name one. Then we'll talk, of course there are ones who ban the practice, but that doesn't mean there are people who believe in some sort of religion.


You are not even saying anything here. My whole contention is that people act without direct consequence from god. Just because people believe in god does not necessarily mean that they are moral because of god. Or does it? That is why we are discussing the topic.

Besides, if I can't name a country that has no god then you are in trouble. There are a lot of very immoral governments out there, and you should be prepared to explain either how they are moral or how god is not a part of these countries. Many of those countries probably do not believe in the same god as you, and they certainly have different concepts of morality.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:15 pm
fredjones wrote:
My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

I am not stating the way things should be, I am merely attempting to explain the way things are

Yey! I got some intellectual juices flowing. Smile

You can be forgiven for anything including murder, as were David and Paul. However practicers of sin have a different problem: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left. . " (Hebrews 10:26)

Whether or not God's purpose is for all to go to heaven would be quite another issue.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:16 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Quote:
Morality exists just fine without gods. How do you think societies without gods survive?


Hmmm...let me think of a good example...oh yeah, Hitler! His principles were based on the ideas of survival of the fittest. Look how well society got along with him around.


Hitler abused people's faith to get what he wanted. I expect better from you.

(Biased site, but I don't want to spend time looking for more)
Evidence that Hitler was Religious
0 Replies
 
Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:19 pm
fredjones wrote:
My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

Morals don't depend on God. They depend on the foundation on which they are built upon. The Bible is a great foundation in this case.

fredjones wrote:
You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

Why wouldn't you rob a bank on proximal issues? I've yet to hear a confessing robber say "Well, I needed the money so I could save up some money for Junior here for his college tuition fund," or "I'm saving up for retirement," etc. Most people who rob banks are desperate for quick money.

fredjones wrote:
You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

Yes, God is merciful. If you ask for forgiveness, he will grant it. But it doesn't work if you plan ahead: "I'll rob the bank today and repent tonight. That way I am still sinless." When you do that, you are not asking for forgiveness, you are depending on forgiveness to clear your conscience.

Oh, and not all bank robbers are caught, so not everyone is punished for their crimes (during their life, anyway).

fredjones wrote:
**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

Just because one is governed does not mean that one follows the rules. I could govern a group of children (i.e. babysitting), but just because I am governing them does not mean that they inherently listen to me. They still posess the potential to break the rules. If we truly were governed under a society based on principle and everyone obeyed the principle, then there would be no conflict. The problem lies in one's desire to break the rules, mostly for personal gain.

fredjones wrote:
I am not stating the way things should be, I am merely attempting to explain the way things are.

Yey! I got some intellectual juices flowing. Smile

Now that you've got the juices flowing, I'd like to hear your comments on my rebuttal to your statements. I'm glad that you're thinking. Smile
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:29 pm
Re: Eorl
00 Agent Kid wrote:
Eorl wrote:
I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

Yes, you have morals (and it's a good thing that you do too). Morals, however, require a strong foundation. What is your foundation for your morals? I imagine that a combination of your parent(s)/guardian(s) guidance and you're teachers have established these morals in you. However, where did they get their morals from? You can say that their parents taught them, etc., but morals didn't just appear. They are linked all the way back to the word of God (the Bible).


The bible has only been around for a fraction of the time that humans have lived together. It stands to reason that humans must have needed a set of rules within a group to resolve disputes and promote peace. The bible is a relatively recent invention. (A largely good idea, but I digress)


00 Agent Kid wrote:

Human beings are natural savages. A strong foundation for morals are necessary. If one poses the question "Why is doing this immoral?", "because it is" is not an acceptable answer. Morals need foundations. Every action (or nonaction) requires a reason. If I had no reason to uphold the morals I live by, then why should I? Why shouldn't I pursue my own interests regardless of what other people say?


Isn't referring to the bible saying,"Because the bible says so?" That seems just as arbitrary as thinking up something myself. The only difference is that if there is a god, he gave me reason. I should use this gift to determine what is right and wrong.

You have reasons to uphold your morals. In Christianity (I have assumed we are talking about this for no real reason) if you ask forgiveness then you are allowed into heaven. What reason do we have for being any moral than what is required?
Answer: We value the opinions of people here on earth more than we value getting into heaven. Heaven is a binary thing. You don't need to be the most moral person to get into heaven.
Unlike God, people do not forgive so easily, and therefore we must be as moral as possible. If we do not, we suffer now, although we may get to heaven later. That is why morality matters.


00 Agent Kid wrote:

Eorl wrote:
How do you think societies without gods survive?

Give me an existing, successful (i.e. peaceful) society whose history does not link back to laws established by God and/or the Bible. Any society can claim that they are godless, yet every society originated from historical times, back toward the division at the Tower of Babel.


Societies do not live long, and for this reason you knowingly demand impossible evidence. Remember that the concepts in the bible used to be spoken word. It wasn't until recently that it was written and called the "bible." Before that it was just an amalgamation of morals. To suggest that the bible predates morality seems silly to me, due to historical constraints.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:47 pm
00 Agent Kid wrote:
fredjones wrote:
My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

Morals don't depend on God. They depend on the foundation on which they are built upon. The Bible is a great foundation in this case.


We are going around and around here. I argue that morality was invented before the bible. In other words, we use reason to determine that the morals in the bible are true. Why not cut out the middle-man? The bible is a good place to put all of our morals, but at this point much of what is in the bible is confusing and does not help us.

00 Agent Kid wrote:

fredjones wrote:
You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

Why wouldn't you rob a bank on proximal issues? I've yet to hear a confessing robber say "Well, I needed the money so I could save up some money for Junior here for his college tuition fund," or "I'm saving up for retirement," etc. Most people who rob banks are desperate for quick money.

I forgot a comma here, fortunately. I say fortunately because you prove my point. We do not act on god's will, we act in terms of each other. It should have read, "You don't rob a bank, because of PROXIMAL issues." Not very well worded, but I was in the heat of the moment. Also, by proximal, I mean "in our lifetimes." I consider our eventual judgement by god to be the Ultimate reasons for being moral.

00 Agent Kid wrote:

fredjones wrote:
You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

Yes, God is merciful. If you ask for forgiveness, he will grant it. But it doesn't work if you plan ahead: "I'll rob the bank today and repent tonight. That way I am still sinless." When you do that, you are not asking for forgiveness, you are depending on forgiveness to clear your conscience.

Oh, and not all bank robbers are caught, so not everyone is punished for their crimes (during their life, anyway).

What if you don't ask forgiveness until the very end of your life? You did not plan it, but you certainly mean it. This way even Hitler could get into heaven according to Christianity. No reasonable human being in my lifetime would consider a heaven-bound Hitler a just action.

I am not arguing that it is only wrong if you get caught. I am arguing that most people do not rob banks because they know that other people would be angry at them. They would rather be poor than be considered 'immoral.' Maybe if we were never judged by fellow human beings I would believe that god had something to do with morality. As it is, we are judged and that judging by our fellows affects us more than god.




00 Agent Kid wrote:

fredjones wrote:
**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

Just because one is governed does not mean that one follows the rules. I could govern a group of children (i.e. babysitting), but just because I am governing them does not mean that they inherently listen to me. They still posess the potential to break the rules. If we truly were governed under a society based on principle and everyone obeyed the principle, then there would be no conflict. The problem lies in one's desire to break the rules, mostly for personal gain.


So don't you think that a self-policing, self-governing body of children would be the most effective system? I would say so, and that is precisely how every civilization works. People (not just officials) police each other. My parents taught me that I should be a good person regardless of the law. Although you might find an analouge to this belief in the bible, it seems necessary that civilizations predating the bible would have agreed with this sentiment. Otherwise the civilization would never have survived.

Also, don't you think that children would have different rules than adults?? Would the rules set down by you, (presumably) from the bible, have any relevance in a society of children? What's all this stuff about adultery? Children don't have sex. Smile
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
  1. Forums
  2. » God is Irrelevant!
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 09/30/2022 at 01:07:13