God is Irrelevant!

-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.

-Until death (if ever), we can have no measure of certainty regarding the contents and intents of god's mind.

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell.

-If morality, as used by people, is based on proximal issues, not eventual, morality as we know it is not dependent on god's wishes (which can change without warning).

-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.

I expect you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong.

Morality exists just fine without gods. How do you think societies without gods survive?

Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.

M!THº§ wrote:

Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.

I don't believe in God. If I am having a barbeque with friends, no law holds me back from eating all the food. Yet I don't eat all the food, because I am a moral person and I do not want to cause harm to my friends.

I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

How do you think societies without gods survive?

Eorl wrote:

I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

Yes, you have morals (and it's a good thing that you do too). Morals, however, require a strong foundation. What is your foundation for your morals? I imagine that a combination of your parent(s)/guardian(s) guidance and you're teachers have established these morals in you. However, where did they get their morals from? You can say that their parents taught them, etc., but morals didn't just appear. They are linked all the way back to the word of God (the Bible).

Human beings are natural savages. A strong foundation for morals are necessary. If one poses the question "Why is doing this immoral?", "because it is" is not an acceptable answer. Morals need foundations. Every action (or nonaction) requires a reason. If I had no reason to uphold the morals I live by, then why should I? Why shouldn't I pursue my own interests regardless of what other people say?

Eorl wrote:

How do you think societies without gods survive?

Give me an existing, successful (i.e. peaceful) society whose history does not link back to laws established by God and/or the Bible. Any society can claim that they are godless, yet every society originated from historical times, back toward the division at the Tower of Babel.

Well, the law is probably holding you back, and most laws were based on religion.

As for countries without god's, name one. Then we'll talk, of course there are ones who ban the practice, but that doesn't mean there are people who believe in some sort of religion.

My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

I am not stating the way things should be, I am merely attempting to explain the way things are

Yey! I got some intellectual juices flowing.

Quote:

Morality exists just fine without gods. How do you think societies without gods survive?

Hmmm...let me think of a good example...oh yeah, Hitler! His principles were based on the ideas of survival of the fittest. Look how well society got along with him around.

My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

I am not stating the way things should be, I am merely attempting to explain the way things are.

Yey! I got some intellectual juices flowing.

Eorl wrote:

I fully expect there are no gods, and yet I've not once robbed a bank.

Morality exists just fine without gods.

Yes, you have morals (and it's a good thing that you do too). Morals, however, require a strong foundation. What is your foundation for your morals? I imagine that a combination of your parent(s)/guardian(s) guidance and you're teachers have established these morals in you. However, where did they get their morals from? You can say that their parents taught them, etc., but morals didn't just appear. They are linked all the way back to the word of God (the Bible).

Human beings are natural savages. A strong foundation for morals are necessary. If one poses the question "Why is doing this immoral?", "because it is" is not an acceptable answer. Morals need foundations. Every action (or nonaction) requires a reason. If I had no reason to uphold the morals I live by, then why should I? Why shouldn't I pursue my own interests regardless of what other people say?

Eorl wrote:

How do you think societies without gods survive?

Give me an existing, successful (i.e. peaceful) society whose history does not link back to laws established by God and/or the Bible. Any society can claim that they are godless, yet every society originated from historical times, back toward the division at the Tower of Babel.

fredjones wrote:

My whole point is that morality does not depend on any god.

Morals don't depend on God. They depend on the foundation on which they are built upon. The Bible is a great foundation in this case.

fredjones wrote:

You don't rob a bank because of PROXIMAL issues. If you did rob that bank, you could still get into heaven.

Why wouldn't you rob a bank on proximal issues? I've yet to hear a confessing robber say "Well, I needed the money so I could save up some money for Junior here for his college tuition fund," or "I'm saving up for retirement," etc. Most people who rob banks are desperate for quick money.

fredjones wrote:

You notice that when we rob a bank, we are punished no matter if we repent or not. As far as god is concerned, if we ask then we are forgiven.

Yes, God is merciful. If you ask for forgiveness, he will grant it. But it doesn't work if you plan ahead: "I'll rob the bank today and repent tonight. That way I am still sinless." When you do that, you are not asking for forgiveness, you are depending on forgiveness to clear your conscience.

Oh, and not all bank robbers are caught, so not everyone is punished for their crimes (during their life, anyway).

fredjones wrote:

**If we really governed a society based on this principle, that would be the true anarchy.**

Just because one is governed does not mean that one follows the rules. I could govern a group of children (i.e. babysitting), but just because I am governing them does not mean that they inherently listen to me. They still posess the potential to break the rules. If we truly were governed under a society based on principle and everyone obeyed the principle, then there would be no conflict. The problem lies in one's desire to break the rules, mostly for personal gain.