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God is Irrelevant!

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 01:09 pm
Re: God is Irrelevant!
fredjones wrote:

. . .

-If we have no knowledge of god's mind, nothing we do can intentionally change our chances of going to heaven or hell. . . .

-One's belief in god does not grant them special knowledge of god's mind, and therefore belief does not make a person more moral than a nonbeliever. If god changes his mind, no one has an advantage.

-This leads me to conclude that god's existence is reduced to a purely academic argument, having no direct effect on our lives. If we are moral, it is because we are rational, reasonable beings.



God is NOT irrelevant; the BIBLE is irrelevant. Rational, reasonable human beings would not believe the Bible is God's word.

Take a look at The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine written in 1794.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1776-1800/paine/Ar/arxx.htm

Excerpt from PART FIRST:

Thomas Paine wrote:
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. . . .

Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication- after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hands of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so. The commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them; they contain some good moral precepts, such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver, or a legislator, could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention.

When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven and brought to Mahomet by an angel, the account comes too near the same kind of hearsay evidence and second-hand authority as the former. I did not see the angel myself, and, therefore, I have a right not to believe it.

When also I am told that a woman called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not; such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it; but we have not even this- for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves; it is only reported by others that they said so- it is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not choose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to the story of Jesus Christ being the son of God. He was born when the heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story. Almost all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing, at that time, to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the intercourse of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds: the story, therefore, had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people called Gentiles, or Mythologists, and it was those people only that believed it. The Jews who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no more, and who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited the story.

It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian church sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand: the statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus; the deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints; the Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything; the church became as crowded with one, as the Pantheon had been with the other, and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient Mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.

Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind; and though similar systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before; by the Quakers since; and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any.

Jesus Christ wrote no account of himself, of his birth, parentage, or any thing else; not a line of what is called the New Testament is of his own writing. The history of him is altogether the work of other people; and as to the account given of his resurrection and ascension, it was the necessary counterpart to the story of his birth. His historians having brought him into the world in a supernatural manner, were obliged to take him out again in the same manner, or the first part of the story must have fallen to the ground.

The wretched contrivance with which this latter part is told exceeds every thing that went before it. The first part, that of the miraculous conception, was not a thing that admitted of publicity; and therefore the tellers of this part of the story had this advantage, that though they might not be credited, they could not be detected. They could not be expected to prove it, because it was not one of those things that admitted of proof, and it was impossible that the person of whom it was told could prove it himself.

But the resurrection of a dead person from the grave, and his ascension through the air, is a thing very different as to the evidence it admits of, to the invisible conception of a child in the womb. The resurrection and ascension, supposing them to have taken place, admitted of public and ocular demonstration, like that of the ascension of a balloon, or the sun at noon-day, to all Jerusalem at least. A thing which everybody is required to believe, requires that the proof and evidence of it should be equal to all, and universal; and as the public visibility of this last related act was the only evidence that could give sanction to the former part, the whole of it falls to the ground, because that evidence never was given. Instead of this, a small number of persons, not more than eight or nine, are introduced as proxies for the whole world, to say they saw it, and all the rest of the world are called upon to believe it. But it appears that Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas.

It is in vain to attempt to palliate or disguise this matter. The story, so far as relates to the supernatural part, has every mark of fraud and imposition stamped upon the face of it. Who were the authors of it is as impossible for us now to know, as it is for us to be assured that the books in which the account is related were written by the persons whose names they bear; the best surviving evidence we now have respecting that affair is the Jews. They are regularly descended from the people who lived in the times this resurrection and ascension is said to have happened, and they say, it is not true. It has long appeared to me a strange inconsistency to cite the Jews as a proof of the truth of the story. It is just the same as if a man were to say, I will prove the truth of what I have told you by producing the people who say it is false.

That such a person as Jesus Christ existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood. The accusation which those priests brought against him was that of sedition and conspiracy against the Roman government, to which the Jews were then subject and tributary; and it is not improbable that the Roman government might have some secret apprehensions of the effects of his doctrine, as well as the Jewish priests; neither is it improbable that Jesus Christ had in contemplation the delivery of the Jewish nation from the bondage of the Romans. Between the two, however, this virtuous reformer and revolutionist lost his life.

It is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am going to mention, that the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients. . . .



Excerpts from CONCLUSION:

Quote:
Whence arose all the horrid assassinations of whole nations of men, women, and infants, with which the Bible is filled, and the bloody persecutions and tortures unto death, and religious wars, that since that time have laid Europe in blood and ashes- whence rose they but from this impious thing called revealed religion, and this monstrous belief that God has spoken to man? The lies of the Bible have been the cause of the one, and the lies of the Testament of the other. . . .

Religion, by such means, becomes a thing of form, instead of fact- of notion, instead of principles; morality is banished to make room for an imaginary thing called faith, and this faith has its origin in a supposed debauchery; a man is preached instead of God; an execution is an object for gratitude; the preachers daub themselves with the blood, like a troop of assassins, and pretend to admire the brilliancy it gives them; they preach a humdrum sermon on the merits of the execution; then praise Jesus Christ for being executed, and condemn the Jews for doing it. A man, by hearing all this nonsense lumped and preached together, confounds the God of the creation with the imagined God of the Christians, and lives as if there were none.

Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics. As an engine of power it serves the purpose of despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or hereafter.

The only religion that has not been invented, and that has in it every evidence of divine originality, is pure and simple Deism. It must have been the first, and will probably be the last, that man believes. But pure and simple Deism does not answer the purpose of despotic governments. They cannot lay hold of religion as an engine, but by mixing it with human inventions, and making their own authority a part; neither does it answer the avarice of priests, but by incorporating themselves and their functions with it, and becoming, like the government, a party in the system. It is this that forms the otherwise mysterious connection of church and state; the church humane, and the state tyrannic. . . .
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 06:04 pm
nategarvey wrote:
fredjones wrote:
Oops, I forgot to say that I disagree with your interpretation of the quote only because, based on my experience, many religious people would disagree that a person could discover moral truths on their own. It seems to me that most people feel they need the Bible (or other holy text) to get into heaven.


Hey everyone! Back from a long break.....

How else are you supposed to get into heaven?


How do you know that following the Bible will improve your chances?
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 06:12 pm
Re: God is Irrelevant!
Debra_Law wrote:

God is NOT irrelevant; the BIBLE is irrelevant. Rational, reasonable human beings would not believe the Bible is God's word.

Take a look at The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine written in 1794.


You have a strange habit of posting a large amount of text without disseminating any of it. I want to know what YOU have to say. Thank for for the reference, though. Wink

Besides, although the topic is "God is Irrelevant," my argument is that the question of god's existence is irrelevant to our lives here on earth. We are moral because of other people, not because of god.
0 Replies
 
nategarvey
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 06:12 pm
Well, I really don't think it's based on "chances." There's no "scale from 1 to 10" on how likely you are to get into heaven. But with all due respect, my question still stands un-answered. if you don't need the bible or any other "holy text," how is one supposed to gain entrance to heaven?


____________________

peacefuly yours,
Nate
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 06:22 pm
My whole point is that it is impossible to know whether or not you are going to heaven. Our only chance is to use reason to determine how to live good lives. The Bible is a tool in this matter, but our own intuition should have the final say.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 07:27 pm
UUHH!! 'Scuse me, but I was under the impression that if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they would still be alive and we would all have the opportunity to live forever on earth. What makes you think God would change his mind?

Sorry Fred, but I think this would at least make the bible relevant.
0 Replies
 
nategarvey
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 11:00 pm
fredjones wrote:
My whole point is that it is impossible to know whether or not you are going to heaven. Our only chance is to use reason to determine how to live good lives. The Bible is a tool in this matter, but our own intuition should have the final say.


I appreciate you bringing everyone back to the root issue.... i don't like rabbit trails... their too rough Laughing

Anyway, to address the argument...

Isn't it depressing knowing that we will never knwo whether or not we will "make it" into heaven?

Just to provide a basis for my sake, i ask you a question for clarification's sake. Is man inherently corrupted? (natural tendency to do bad or evil)
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 11:00 pm
neologist wrote:
What makes you think God would change his mind?


What makes you think that God wouldn't change his mind?

That is my whole point. Razz

Edit: to include quote.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 11:53 pm
nategarvey wrote:
fredjones wrote:
My whole point is that it is impossible to know whether or not you are going to heaven. Our only chance is to use reason to determine how to live good lives. The Bible is a tool in this matter, but our own intuition should have the final say.


I appreciate you bringing everyone back to the root issue.... i don't like rabbit trails... their too rough Laughing

Anyway, to address the argument...

Isn't it depressing knowing that we will never know whether or not we will "make it" into heaven?


Well, regardless of the existence of god, I want to live a good life. My personal aim is not necessarily to get into heaven. I have no control over god's decision, so I figure "why worry?" I would rather be good to my fellow human beings, so that I can make this life good, rather than waiting until the next life to be happy.

nategarvey wrote:

Just to provide a basis for my sake, i ask you a question for clarification's sake. Is man inherently corrupted? (natural tendency to do bad or evil)


I think human beings are inherently "amoral." We are not born good or bad. Only through interactions with other people can we learn to be good or bad.

I also believe that morality is purely relative (and therefore meaningless) outside the domain of human relationships. If a child somehow is able to survive on a remote island, he can believe anything he wants. Unless he has others to judge him, it doesn't really matter what he believes. He can believe anything that makes him happy.

It is only when we hold others to our standards, that we must develop a working agreement. Then morality ceases to be purely relative.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 01:30 am
Re: God is Irrelevant!
fredjones wrote:

-In order to live a good life, we must be moral beings. If there is a higher power, he will judge us based on our morality.

-you to rip this apart. If you do not, then I am right and you are wrong.


With your philosophy, anything is okay.


You have no basis to say that your supposed "morality" is any better than what I consider properly "moral."

Thus, I could be a serial killer and worse, and have a tightly devised "morality" that fit that life.

And you have no way to prove your definition of a "good life" or "morality" is any better than a serial killer's for example.

The problem with this is you seem to assume you know what proper morals or a "good life" is. Perhaps your morals are differnent from a cannibalistic tribal member's morals. Who is to say yours are better?

Thus, with your philosophy: Anything Goes. Murder, etc. is potentially okay.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 01:52 am
Some say Hitler had a fairly significant system of Morality?

He considered many of those he had exterminated to be Immoral.

I guess this would be okay...

If you are strong, your Morality dominates.

Why not? Who is to say you are wrong?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 02:00 am
That's true enough.

There's a bunch of folks on the capital punishment thread who think murder is not only acceptable but preferable as a deterent to crime.

Go figure.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 04:13 am
Re: God is Irrelevant!
extra medium wrote:

With your philosophy, anything is okay.


You have no basis to say that your supposed "morality" is any better than what I consider properly "moral."

Thus, I could be a serial killer and worse, and have a tightly devised "morality" that fit that life.

And you have no way to prove your definition of a "good life" or "morality" is any better than a serial killer's for example.

The problem with this is you seem to assume you know what proper morals or a "good life" is. Perhaps your morals are differnent from a cannibalistic tribal member's morals. Who is to say yours are better?

Thus, with your philosophy: Anything Goes. Murder, etc. is potentially okay.


No it is not okay. Why? Because the vast number of people would not support such action as moral.

Murder is immoral by definition. Death is not necessarily bad, but wrongful death is necessarily bad, or else it wouldn't be "wrongful!"

In order for a moral decree to have any weight, there must be some sort of agreement between a large part of the population. If a serial killer lived on a deserted island, yes, he would be able to function with this morality. But by definition he does not live in such isolation.

A society's members determine the morality of a situation. Their judgement is the one that counts.

--

You say that I do not have the capability to discover morality for myself. I say you are wrong. Morality, on earth, is relative with certain caveats.

If absolute morality exists, it will not be revealed to us until we meet god. Morality on earth (like it or not) is a function of majority rule. People vote with their membership in a religious (or non-religious) body. The rules they (implicitly) agree upon become the standard for the society.

Morality can be levied upon those who do not agree, based on the opinion of the majority (look at the US!). It is possible for people to have perfectly relative morals, and yet have a standard with each other on what is right and wrong.

--

If a person chooses to follow the Bible, aren't they also choosing their own morality? They are merely choosing a morality that others have chosen in the past. Is wide acceptance of an idea any measure of Truth? No.

Fortunately I am not interested in Truth. I am only interested in living a good life based on the principles that I and others agree upon. If others do not agree, then I must make some changes, or else leave those who disagree.

--

I have heard a question before, which I would like to repeat:
If it could be proven that there is no god,
Would you still be a moral person?

Despite the fact that such evidence is impossible, your answer allows much insight into the quality of your character.
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 04:17 am
extra medium wrote:
Some say Hitler had a fairly significant system of Morality?

He considered many of those he had exterminated to be Immoral.

I guess this would be okay...

If you are strong, your Morality dominates.

Why not? Who is to say you are wrong?


We were stronger, so we say he is wrong.

God did not find it prudent to intervene.

Who knows what side god was really on?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 04:45 am
Re: God is Irrelevant!
fredjones wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:

God is NOT irrelevant; the BIBLE is irrelevant. Rational, reasonable human beings would not believe the Bible is God's word.

Take a look at The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine written in 1794.


You have a strange habit of posting a large amount of text without disseminating any of it. I want to know what YOU have to say. Thank for for the reference, though. Wink

Besides, although the topic is "God is Irrelevant," my argument is that the question of god's existence is irrelevant to our lives here on earth. We are moral because of other people, not because of god.


There was nothing in your post initiating this thread that stated only those who agree with your premise that "God is Irrelevant" are allowed to take part in the discussion. I don't agree with your premise. However, I don't agree with other posters who have placed their faith in the bible as God's word.

It was your premise that we are moral, not because of God (because it's highly unlikely that we will talk to him directly and figure out what he expects from us), but because we are rational and reasonable beings. Others before you have discussed this topic at length. In fact, Thomas Paine wrote a book over 200 years ago entitled, The Age of Reason. If you are unable to discern the relevance of Paine's writings to your own topic (and subtopics) without someone walking you through it, that's hardly my fault.

Discussions on a topic do not take place in a vacuum--nor are the participants required to entirely reinvent the wheel from scratch. Inasmuch as you are uninterested in the basis for anything I have to say on this topic, I will end my participation with this: I disagree with your premise. As rational and reasonable beings, God is relevant. As a human being, I believe in one God. I believe, like Thomas Paine, in the equality of man; and I believe in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. My God made me that way . . . and I haven't fallen victim to the false and idiotic teachings of the Bible.

God is relevant; the bible is irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 05:19 am
If I may fredjones,

Debra, I think his point is that you made that choice yourself, including your choice to believe...regardless of wether or not there is, in fact, a god.

Am I right fred?

Just thought you might be getting tired of saying it.. Smile
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 05:59 am
Relative morality has got to be the crappiest disguise for "do what you want, when you want" or "do what feels good" It is like trying to run a country, would you want all the citizens to do what is right in their own eyes(relative morality)...or would it be better to have a basis that everyone must abide by(ten commandments) a basis that provides that everyone will respect one another. Which one would run the country better? Which one makes more sense to have come from a God that created us and wants us to live our lives peacefully?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 07:11 am
I think that what we have is consensual relative morality, where everyone agrees to choose the same or a similar morality to others. If there were true relative morality on an individual basis, society would indeed collapse.

As social animals, we see a trend towards conformity. We want to conform. We want to be more like everyone else or the ideal image of a human being.

Perhaps the morales are set by the strong and the weak conform to them. That is perhaps what society is all about and what keeps society intact.
0 Replies
 
Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 07:49 am
Debra_Law wrote:
My God made me that way . . . and I haven't fallen victim to the false and idiotic teachings of the Bible.

God is relevant; the bible is irrelevant.

Have a look at these two passages:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 wrote:
{16} All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, {17} so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 1:21 wrote:
{21} For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is the inspired word of God. I still do not see how you think God is relevant and that the Bible is not. The Bible is an instruction manual of sorts for our lives. One cannot say that the Bible is fallible since it was written by man. Do you think that if a mistake were made that God would sit idly by and just let everyone learn something the wrong way? Of course not. If you are asked to write something by God, you are not going to mess up and get away with it.
0 Replies
 
MiTHoS
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:20 am
Eorl wrote:
There's a bunch of folks on the capital punishment thread who think murder is not only acceptable but preferable as a deterent to crime.


Capital punishment isn't murder.
0 Replies
 
 

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