1
   

How to destroy America

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 09:37 am
Re: TR the Christian:
Quote:
More like a Christian philosophy of government if you ask me.
Tell that to the radical priests in Mexico and Central America, the Pope sure isn't listening.

As for seasonal work:

You're not telling me anything. In my family, all five of us worked the fields of the Tobacco Valley of Connecticut as soon as we turned fifteen, (See the movie Parrish for an odd but fairly true picture of conditions) then we picked strawberries or tomatos or went out to the local fields to pick eating ears of corn (if you picked six bushels you got a dozen ears for free. We needed two dozen for the seven of us. Laughing )

But do you know who worked with us? Cubans, until Castro arrived, ( I missed the time of the Cubans, I was too little, but my sisters both had pen-pals in Cuba till the revolution) then Puerto Ricans and a few guys from Mexico. I liked them. They worked hard, laughed a lot and taught us dirty words in Spanish. It was not colossal fun, it was hard work, dirty work, sweaty work. And as soon as the bus dropped us off at four o'clock I had to run to get my paper route done. Cool

I am not to optimistic about your plan to get enough of today's teenagers into the fields to satisfy my need for roasting ears and Big Boy Tomatoes. I do like to make sure that the guys from the D.R. and the grandsons of those guys from Mexico receive a fair day's pay for their efforts, that's why I support both the Union movement and the Guest Workers Program.

Joe(How else would five kids go to college on a blue-collar worker's pay?)Nation
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 10:31 am
As a son of migrant workers, I endorse Joe Nation's last post. A bunch of fat satisfied couch quarterbacks can't know the real situation out there.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 12:08 pm
Just thinking about christians and those darkish Mexicano types...

If each Baptist church and publication in the US thought they ought to accurately portray Christ, he would look FAR MORE like al-Zarqawi or Saddam than like the Danish brunette presently gracing walls and prayerful pages.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 12:55 pm
I know. I was shocked the first time I met an actual Palestinian.



I was 22.

Joe(quocumque vobis.)Nation
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 04:10 am
Quote:
gungasnake:
It's basically the republicans who are trying to bring strict constructionists into the system and demokkkrats who are using anti-constitutional methods to try to thwart the effort. The basic idea seems to be that the dems have no faith in their ability to win elections anymore and count on governing from the bench.


EDITED IN RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING ADMONITION

Gunga: I pretty much stop reading at the point at which I see condescension in a forum post; this is the point at which I stopped reading yours.

YOU'LL FIND A POSTING TWO ON FROM THIS ONE THAT WILL BE MORE TO YOUR LIKING, Gunga. Enjoy. Smile
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:26 pm
JTT wrote:

You should try to get yourself up to speed instead of just repeating talking points, Gunga. These are complicated issues and since it's readily apparent you slept through your civics classes, this might help. To aid you in understanding...


I pretty much stop reading at the point at which I see condescension in a forum post; this is the point at which I stopped reading yours.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 01:40 am
JTT wrote:
Quote:
gungasnake:
It's basically the republicans who are trying to bring strict constructionists into the system and demokkkrats who are using anti-constitutional methods to try to thwart the effort. The basic idea seems to be that the dems have no faith in their ability to win elections anymore and count on governing from the bench.


These are complicated issues, Gunga, so this might help you to gain a greater understanding. Let me suggest Debra_Law's postings in the thread, "A Fuming John Kerry". Debra's analysis is first rate.


Here's another article which may help.


Quote:

Would Strict Constructionism Have Freed Dred Scott?

by Charles Rothfeld and Thomas Colby
October 26, 2004

When he condemned the Supreme Court's decision in Scott v. Sanford - the notorious Dred Scott case - during his second debate with John Kerry, President Bush offered that case as an example of the dangers of appointing judges who are not "strict constructionists." But in fact, it is just the opposite. It is history's most infamous example of the shortcomings of the very judicial philosophy that President Bush endorses.

Of course, the president's repudiation of slavery was gratifying. And he was right in suggesting that the Dred Scott decision, although nearly 150 years old, still holds useful lessons on what presidents should look for in their judicial appointments. Those lessons, however, are not the ones identified by President Bush.

First, a bit of history. As most of us remember from high school civics, Dred Scott was a slave who was taken by his master to the free state of Illinois and the free territory of Wisconsin. After returning to the slave state of Missouri, Scott sued for his freedom, arguing that he became a free man when he entered territory where slavery was outlawed. The Supreme Court disagreed. In what has become perhaps its most universally reviled decision, the Court held that members of "the negro race" were not citizens of the United States and therefore lacked standing to sue in federal court. But the Court did not stop there, going on to hold that the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which had prohibited slavery in the northern portion of the territory acquired in the Louisiana Purchase, was unconstitutional. The Court reasoned that Congress could not prohibit citizens from taking their property - including their slaves - into any territory of the United States.

Against this background, the president invoked Dred Scott when asked at the second debate who he would appoint if there were a vacancy on the Supreme Court. The president began his answer by condemning judges who allow their

"personal opinion to enter into the decision-making process as opposed to a strict interpretation of the Constitution."

He then offered an example:

"the Dred Scott case, which is where judges, years ago, said that the Constitution allowed slavery because of personal property rights.

That's a personal opinion. That's not what the Constitution says. The Constitution of the United States says we're all - you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America.

And so, I would pick people that would be strict constructionists."

Of all the Supreme Court decisions he could have chosen as the exemplar of poor legal analysis, why would President Bush pick a case that predates the Civil War? It has been widely remarked that the president meant his reference as a signal to right-to-life voters, who often equate Scott v. Sanford with Roe v. Wade. But let's take the president at his word. The Dred Scott decision, he said, was based on the justices' "personal opinion" "that the Constitution allowed slavery." And the decision was wrong because judges should be "strict constructionists" who will base their rulings on a "strict interpretation of the Constitution." They should not allow "personal opinion to enter into the decision-making process"; instead, they should go by "what the Constitution says."

But the Dred Scott case was expressly based on the plain language of the Constitution.

In fact, the decision may be history's foremost example of "strict constructionism" run amok. When the case was decided in 1857, the Constitution said nothing about "the equality of America," as the president seemed to suggest. To the contrary, it contained two provisions expressly codifying the institution of slavery: one permitted the importation of slaves by any state until 1808, while the other required that escaped slaves be returned to their servitude.

According to Chief Justice Roger Taney's opinion for the Court, these clauses "point directly and specifically to the negro race as a separate class of persons, and show clearly that they were not regarded as a portion of the people or citizens of the Government then formed." Indeed, the Constitution provided that a slave was to be counted, for purposes of determining each state's proportionate representation in the House of Representatives, as three-fifths of a human being.

This plain constitutional text, Taney declared repeatedly throughout his opinion, tied the Court's hands and dictated the outcome in Scott v. Sanford:

No one, we presume, supposes that any change in public opinion or feeling, in relation to this unfortunate race, in the civilized nations of Europe or in this country, should induce the court to give to the words of the Constitution a more liberal construction in their favor than they were intended to bear when the instrument was framed and adopted. Such an argument would be altogether inadmissible in any tribunal called on to interpret it. If any of its provisions are deemed unjust, there is a mode prescribed in the instrument itself by which it may be amended; but while it remains unaltered, it must be construed now as it was understood at the time of its adoption. … Any other rule of construction would abrogate the judicial character of this court, and make it the mere reflex of the popular opinion or passion of the day.

This is the very judicial philosophy that the president endorsed - even as he vehemently rejected the holding produced by that philosophy in Scott v. Sanford.

That is the real lesson the case holds today. Facile invocation of the "strict constructionist" label tells us very little about how judges will decide particular cases; the values and experience that judges bring to the court inevitably do much to determine the meaning that they ascribe to what Chief Justice Taney himself called "the plain words" of the Constitution. It thus comes as no surprise that seven of the nine justices on the Supreme Court that decided Dred Scott's case had been appointed by pro-slavery presidents, and that five came from slave-holding families. "Strict constructionism" allows judges to reach their preferred (and sometimes morally abhorrent) results while claiming that the outcome was dictated by history and constitutional text.

The Dred Scott case shows that no formula can ever wholly squeeze "personal opinion" out of judging - and that is why voters concerned about the future of the Supreme Court should care about the values and experience that a president will bring to the selection of justices.

---------------------

Charles Rothfeld was a law clerk to Justice Harry A. Blackmun and worked in the Office of the Solicitor General at the U.S. Justice Department before joining the law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP. He has argued 20 cases in the Supreme Court. Thomas Colby is an associate professor at the George Washington University Law School and was a law clerk to Justice David H. Souter of the Supreme Court.


http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.aspc=biJRJ8OVF&b=231728&printmode=1


I didn't want you to miss this opportunity, Gunga.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 04:54 am
Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ..


There was always, to say the least, a large contradiction inherent in the founding documents of the United States and that contradiction was resolved in the carnage of the civil war.

You might want to get yourself a copy of Hugh Thomas' "The Slave Trade" to try to come up with a better understanding of slavery as it existed in 1810 or 1859 in America.

Slavery in the Christian world prior to the mid 1400s had been the sort of ordinary slavery which was common in the world for millenia, mainly serfdom and peasantry which was abolished in Russia for instance at almost the same time as slavery was ended in the US.

The sort of evil slavery which you read about was pretty much invented in the muslim world and still goes on to some extent in the muslim world today. When Tamerlane broke up the trade routes which the Mongols had reestablished, Europeans started sailing around Africa to reach India and the spice islands and, when they put into African ports for water and supplies, the locals figured they were simply muslims who had figured a new way to get there and opened up the slave markets.

Something like 85% of all African slaves sent to the Americas ended up in the Caribbean or south and central America where they were worked to death and then replaced, mainly on sugar plantations. For the most part it was only in the United States that black slaves lived decently enough to reproduce and become self sustaining. Thus to slave owners of the late 1700s and early 1800s in the US, slavery appeared as a normal human institution andit was not that difficult for many to believe that they were running a benevolent institution, at least compared to what was normal in the world. Nor is it difficult to understand how a strict constructionist of the day might have ruled on the side of slave owners.

But those days are long over. The kinds of reasons I'd like to see strict constructionists on the courts in our present world include:

  • A rogue political party (demokkkrats) giving up on winning elections and wishing to implement its social theories from the bench.
  • The assault on Christian values from the bench over the last 50 years.
  • The assault on guaranteed rights including the 2'nd ammendment from the bench and in state legislation. The dangers include frivelous lawsuits intended to destroy the firearm industry on general principles.
  • The assaault on democracy from the bench including atrocities such as the Kansas City Mo. school bussing decrees and the notion of a single clintonista judge overturning a statewide California referendum intended to protect the state and its citizens and taxpayers from the the predations of illegal aliens and the machinations of a rogue political party.
  • The assault on long established legal principles by rogue government agencies including the IRS, the DEA, BATF etc. etc.
  • Lare-scale modern rackets such as the "class-action lawsuit" which amount to grotesque abuses of the legal system. The major perpetrators of all such are, of course, one of the two most major financial pillars of the demokkkrat party, the other being the NEA and other govt. workers' unions.


I mean, there are a few others as well and they amount to enough of a case that I have to like the idea of strict constructionists on the bench. Slavery however plays no part in it. I've never owned any slaves and have no desire to.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 05:20 am
demokkkrats
clintonista
rogue
grotesque
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 07:40 am
CodeBorg wrote:
demokkkrats
clintonista
rogue
grotesque



http://www.onceuponatimecollectibles.com/images/Mirror.jpg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:09 am
Quote:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Those two statements are not difficult to read or interpret.

"Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech or of the press" means precisely what it says. Thus nobody would expect the McCain Finegold law to survive any sort of a constitutional challenge. With strict constructionists on the supreme court, it wouldn't.

Likewise the second ammendment consists of a short rationale, followed by a statement of the law. It could as easily read

Quote:

Due to the well-known fact that a wet bird never flies at night, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


The rational doesn't matter and is irrelevant. The basic guaranteed right of the people to own arms is supposed to be sacrosanct and applies to knives, swords, archery equipment, and semiautomatic rifles in equal measure. None of the 30,000 or so "gun control" laws which are presently on our books should survive any sort of a constitutional challenge.
0 Replies
 
Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:03 pm
Does that mean I can finally own my own shoulder mounted rocket launcher? What about an M1-Abrams tank. Assuming I had the money, are you even saying I could go so far as to obtain nuclear weapons as long as I didn't sell them outside of the country?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:13 pm
Vengoropatubus wrote:
Does that mean I can finally own my own shoulder mounted rocket launcher? What about an M1-Abrams tank. Assuming I had the money, are you even saying I could go so far as to obtain nuclear weapons as long as I didn't sell them outside of the country?


That's a valid point and I think there's a believable answer to it. A line clearly has to be drawn somewhere, it's just a question of where.

I would settle for the following interpretation: that if the idea of Hamas or the IRA or some such organization owning something bothers Uncle Sam enough to do something about it, then the common man should not be able to own it; otherwise he should. Now, Hamas can own all the firearms they care to, all the machine guns, mortars, artillary pieces, and neither Uncle Sam nor the IDF really give a rat's ass UNLESS they commit some sort of crime with them. Let Hamas acquiire shoulder-fired AA missiles, poison gas, bioweapons, or nuclear weaponry, and both Uncle Sam and the Mossad will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Like I say, that would work for me. I have no desire to own shoulder-fired missiles or bioweapons or any such and would immediately report anybody I ever saw with them to the FBI. Stuff below that level was legal for anybody to own in 1900 and should be legal now.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:19 pm
Vengoropatubus wrote:
Does that mean I can finally own my own shoulder mounted rocket launcher? What about an M1-Abrams tank. Assuming I had the money, are you even saying I could go so far as to obtain nuclear weapons as long as I didn't sell them outside of the country?


You might want to check this out:

http://www.rusarm.ru/p_frame/main.htm

My favorites are the little 120 mm self-propelled guns:

http://www.rusarm.ru/p_prod/army/im_army/vena-1.jpg

Quote:

The 120 mm versatile SP artillery system is an amphibious armoured artillery mount based on the BMP-3 IFV tracked chassis. It comprises automated vertical and horizontal laying control system, survey system, day/night optoelectronic target detection and designation device ensuring high-precision fire. The gun can fire Russian projectiles, as well as Russian and NATO standart mines. It provides delivery of powerful closely grouped HE fire on a target with the destruction effect comparable to that of 152-, 155-mm artillery.


Basically, Russia is becoming a free country like we used to be and, if you can afford it, they'll sell it to you. Picture going into the woods with that thing on opening day of deer season?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:36 pm
"strict constructionist" is such a lame term. It means "interpret it the way I do."

Hate to tell you this but a "strict constructionist" reading of the constitution means that the courts get to decide the meaning. Anything else is NOT strict constructionist.

I suggest you read Art III
Section 2.


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:41 pm
Quote:
The rational doesn't matter and is irrelevant. The basic guaranteed right of the people to own arms is supposed to be sacrosanct and applies to knives, swords, archery equipment, and semiautomatic rifles in equal measure. None of the 30,000 or so "gun control" laws which are presently on our books should survive any sort of a constitutional challenge.



Oh, I see.. "Strict constructionist" means you can CHANGE meanings of words from what they meant back then. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

A "strict constructionist" reading would require that there be NO change of meaning from what it meant in 1783 would in not? There were no semiautomatic weapons back then so "arms" can not mean it today if you want to be strictly constructionist about the constitution.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 12:30 pm
I kinda like this one. A Kel-Tec SU-16C in .223. It has to be registered as a pistol in Michigan (because of folded length), so, if you have a CCW, you could carry this, legally, in your car or under your coat.

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/su16cside.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 12:32 pm
One of these days, you might even get lucky enough to have someone attack you so you can legally kill them, cjhsa.

Wouldn't that be nice?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 12:45 pm
I can legally kill someone who attacks me no matter where I live, or how I do it. I refuse to be a victim.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 12:46 pm
Rolling Eyes

I never referred to where you live, I'm referring to the fact that you would love to hurt someone with a gun, down deep; you just need an excuse to do it, is all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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