ISLAM Q&A

I agree with a lot of what VS Naipaul says. Its a fact that Islam was spread by the sword, and I think its also a fact that this has been deliberately played down.

However I dont think even bin Laden wants to establish a world wide caliphate by force today. The muslims dont want to reconquer India, they want western interests out of their "Holy" lands. Why? Its not because we are stopping them praying, its because they want to get a controlling hand on "their" oil...(oil which would have stayed in the ground for ever more had it not been for Western technology).

The great tragedy is that Islam has never reformed. It cant. Once you pronounce something perfect and final, how can you say we need to modify our ideas in the light of modern thought?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The muslims dont want to reconquer India, ...

sas who??

heard of the Jaish-e-muhammed??

they want to islamise whole of india again. they declare it openly. india is "unfinished business" (which incidentally is also how missionaries see india). and they are certainly not alone in this fantasy of theirs.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

oil which would have stayed in the ground for ever more had it not been for Western technology

there's nothing western or eastern about technology.
atoms dont split co the west deems they should.

i dont want to get into the reasons why the west has the technological advantage and what fueled their many industrial revolutions...suffice to say that the one major eastern country thats technologically inferior to none, (japan) has something very much common with the larger west.

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just checking in,

read muslim1's response to my questions.

have totally lost all interest in this thread.

happened when muslim1's said he never heard of such a thing as a brother or father raping a sister/dtr.

can't waste my time w/ such BS.

you're living in a fantasy world if you say there is no proof.

pity, I was really looking for answers.

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No, I havent heard of Jaish-e-muhammed, I'll find out.

But I agree that if they do want to conquer India they are indeed dangerous fantasists.

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from http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/jem.htm

The Jaish-e-Mohammed is an Islamic extremist group based in Pakistan that was formed in early 2000 by Masood Azhar upon his release from prison in India. The group's aim is to unite Kashmir with Pakistan.

...................................................

doesnt say anything about forcing India to become Islamic.

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Quote:

Unlike the Kashmiri extremist organisations which describe their aim as the right of self-determination for the Kashmiris, the Markaz describes its objective as the liberation of the Muslims of J & K from the control and influence of the Hindus followed by the liberation of the Muslims of the rest of India. It describes Kashmir as the gateway to India and calls for the creation of three Pakistans or Muslim homelands�with Pakistan and J & K constituting one, the Muslims of North India forming the second and the Muslims of South India, the third.

Addressing the Lahore Press Club on February 18,1996,Amir Saeed said: "The jihad in Kashmir would soon spread to entire India. Our Mujahideen would create three Pakistans in India."

In an interview to the "Takbeer" of Pakistan (October 9,1997), he said: " We feel that Kashmir should be liberated at the earliest. Thereafter, Indian Muslims should be aroused to rise in revolt against the Indian Union so that India gets disintegrated."

http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/terrorism/terrorism20001227a.html

though i confess i confused jaish-e-muhammed with lashkar-e-taiba.

jaish isnt too different either... and i have read their objectives as well... mughalistan is the hypothetical name they give to the islamic india of their dreams. wait i'll try to dig that out too...

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

that was formed in early 2000 by Masood Azhar upon his release from prison in India. .

lmao @the way they said "release from prison in india". euphemisms are a favourite of the western media. meanwhile the gujrat riots are a "genocide" !!!

this
and this
and this should explain exactly how they got "released".

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I dont know Brahmin I really dont.

Sometimes I think Islam is just like any other religion, with some extremist fantasists, but basicaly harmless.

Sometimes I think Muslim extremists are a tool of the West (no denying we have used them in the past in Afghanistan against Russia and in Kosovo against Serbia)....and now we are using them again this time to serve as our "global enemy" in our pursuit of oil.

Then I think we really are in a clash of civilisations, between modernity and as Tony Blair said recently "pre-medieval religious fanatasism".

I remember several years ago when people were just beginning to wake up to these Islamists, one guy said he would fight to establish sharia law in England, and not rest until the green flag of Islam flew at 10 Downing Street. I thought then, and still think now that he was completely mad.

But I've come to the conclusion that though these people might be mad, they are also very dangerous.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I dont know Brahmin I really dont.

but we do. being a hindu, we are amongst 2 peoples (the other being jews) wo know almost everything about muslims and their true character and designs.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Sometimes I think Islam is just like any other religion, with some extremist fantasists, but basicaly harmless.

looking up the defination of "cult" in the dictionary may be a wise idea here.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Sometimes I think Muslim extremists are a tool of the West (no denying we have used them in the past in Afghanistan against Russia and in Kosovo against Serbia)....and now we are using them again this time to serve as our "global enemy" in our pursuit of oil.

i am not sure russia is not bringing it full circle.
the west use afghanistan as a "afghan trap" - an effort to drag ussr in a vietnam style war. russia could be helping al quieda/taliban/keeping osama safe, to return the favour.. esp since their president is from an institute called KGB.

it could also be china - fior its in their interest to keep usa engaged.
also it could be pakistan cos afghanistan is their golden goose. they made a mad loot out of the soviet invasion of a'stan and now do so again. they also have an interest in keeping it going.

when oil ends 40 years on, the west will find it a lot easy to deal with jehadis. the game of attrition has to continue for 40 more years and then the showdown can come.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Then I think we really are in a clash of civilisations, between modernity and as Tony Blair said recently "pre-medieval religious fanatasism".

of all the lands that fell to islam, only iran and iraq had civilizations (and to some extent assyrians). and even from that, iraq has been arabificated no end. but iranians think of arabs in a way not unlike nazis think of negros - so less influnce.

however ALL the other lands, aside of iraq ad iran, that fell to islam were big time barbarian tribes/"army nations"(like turks for example where every turk was a fighter) back in the day. uzbegs, turks, mongols, afghans, pathans, tajiks, all the "stan" countries basically (which is where huns come from - from between the land of mongols and the land of turks). also north african Tuaregs. these peoples have produced

that background and a progressive ideology er .. cult like islam, makes for a very tough cocktail/nut to crack.

its not a clash of civilizations, but a clash of capitalist ex-colonials and ancient barbarism dressed up in mediaval ideology.

meanwhile iran when it turns bad, ill be a more difficult to handle than say afghanistan, for the same reason highy intelligent people make for far more dangerous criminals than normal thugs.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I remember several years ago when people were just beginning to wake up to these Islamists, one guy said he would fight to establish sharia law in England, and not rest until the green flag of Islam flew at 10 Downing Street. I thought then, and still think now that he was completely mad.

yes. thats the west. woke up to it only some years ago.

we knew it for 1000 years, we knew 9/11, madrid, bali and 7/7 was inevitable and our diplomats warned everyone for the last 50 years - no one listenned. now that you guys are getting the stick, you side with us eh !!

when hindus were slaughtered and flushed out of kashmir (the way china flushes tibetans from tibet to make it a chisese majority land) - no one in the west batted an eyelid. uno did not bother. their problem. two brown peoples fighting each other what the hell do we care.

but when one westerner dies we need to feel sorry and join the effort.

now face the music. now come to us as blair did, for logistical help and intelligence. india incidentally is second only to usa in terms of cooperation with israel when it comes to counter terrorism. so there - even the israelis with ther mossads and shin bets work with us on this.

and its only just begun the jihad.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

But I've come to the conclusion that though these people might be mad, they are also very dangerous.

well better late than never, as they say.

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Chai,

Chai Tea wrote:

happened when muslim1's said he never heard of such a thing as a brother or father raping a sister/dtr

You misunderstood me. When I said "It's the first time I hear such thing" I responded to "why was it her fault?" not to the fact that there are people who rape their sister or daughter.
I asked you for proof where in the religion of Islam can we find that "it is the fault of the woman if she's raped by her brother or father".
Be sure that you will not find a single verse in the Noble Qur'an or in the teachings of prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that makes a woman guilty if she's raped.

Steve,

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Its a fact that Islam was spread by the sword

This argument was refuted several times in AB2K. Here is an example:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post1554997.html#1554997

And Allah knows best.

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so you mean islam was noty spread by the sword??

a dozen million indians weren't hacked ?? 10 hundread temples werent razed to the ground and mosques built on them ??
zorastrianism wasnt killed off in iran ??
turks didnt go to europe ??
arabs didnt screw north africa ??
armenians wrerent genocided??
crusades werent fought ??
spain and portugal wasnt under moors ??

take a hike !!!

and steve, since you are english, you'll have heard of this true blue Macaulite probably - considered by many to be the last true engishman to have lived - Nirad C Choudhury.

even if you haven't, it should not be tough to get hold of his books. try "the east is east and the west is west" and read the last chapter.

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no I havent heard of Nirad C Choudary. Will do some research thanks.

When I used the word civilisation I was thinking more in terms of ideas than city-cultures.

Are you saying the aims of the jihadists now are the same as 1000 years ago? i.e. world wide caliphate? I cant believe that.

Religion might inspire some people to violent acts, but the real struggle is much more prosaic, e.g. for land in Palestine, and for control of oil in the middle east.

On the other hand, if you are right, then there is no hope. Thanks to A Q Khan stealing nuclear technology from Europe and selling to ? the Islamists probably already have access to nuclear weapons. Get ready to be obliterated or pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Sorry I just dont believe the situation is as bleak as that.

...........................................................

There are about 1.6 million muslims in Britain. What proportion in your opinion are prepared to use violence? What should we do with these people?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

no I havent heard of Nirad C Choudary. Will do some research thanks.

welcome.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

When I used the word civilisation I was thinking more in terms of ideas than city-cultures.

yes. its a clash of ideas and basic mentaities all right.

ex-colonial capitalist ideas VS ancient barbarian tendencies dressed in mediaval tribal theology.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Are you saying the aims of the jihadists now are the same as 1000 years ago? i.e. world wide caliphate? I cant believe that.

its not me who's saying.
its the jehadis who are saying.

they want islam to be in the position it was just before martel chased them out - ie. southern europe, north africa, israel to india, malayasia, indonesia - all under them. back to their glory days.

sort of like the PNAC idea of chenay and rumsfeld.
PN"I"E (project for new islamic era) - with the chaliphet/khilafat as the head a la pope to catholics.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Religion might inspire some people to violent acts, but the real struggle is much more prosaic, e.g. for land in Palestine, and for control of oil in the middle east.

oil is theres in any case.
they want every muslim to be governed by the law god gave to muslims. thats what the more outspoken of them say - including to tv interviews like bbc hard talk.
they also want every piece of land where muslims live to be under shariat.

hence kashmir needs to be liberated - as does pakistan - from whatever little democracy it has !!
hence palestine needs to be "liberated" - cos #1, that land belongs to the muslims and #2, the muslims in turn belong to god - hence gotta be ruled by god's given law.
if israel quit and the jews went back to the west tommorow - then too fights would continue. this time for part 2 of the agenda (shariat).

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

On the other hand, if you are right, then there is no hope. Thanks to A Q Khan stealing nuclear technology from Europe and selling to ? the Islamists probably already have access to nuclear weapons. Get ready to be obliterated or pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Sorry I just dont believe the situation is as bleak as that.

forget a q khan for a sec. he doesnt have much technology to dispense in any case.
when russia fell, they had top nuclear and rocket physicists going jobless. those scientists have bills to pay and mouths to feed. and russia has a score to settle for the afghan trap. as does china have a reason to "trap" usa. and also some of the russian stock piles and bases were/still are in the "stan" countries. do you see bbc's, "places that dont exist" series?

go back 50 years. jobless ex-nazi scientists worked for nasser's egypt, making rockets in helwan and worked for saddams osirak (a joint egyptian and iraqi project - named personally by saddam as osirak = osiris + iraq)
nuclear plant. which israel thankfully blew to kingdom come one day.

put 2 and 2 together.

do you know which group of people the best suicide bombers come from??
from those palestanians who have lost a parent or child to the idf.

what if some jehadi nut job who lost someone ............ nukes may be a bit much. but lesser level jihad is here to stay. and will get more desparate as they are more cornered.

come to think of it - when india was helping ussr with intelligence when ussr invaded afghanistan, the west may have been better off leaving us well alone instead of creating monsters.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

There are about 1.6 million muslims in Britain. What proportion in your opinion are prepared to use violence? What should we do with these people?

depends on what proportion of them hold something or the other against uk.
the first iraq war is all england's fault. do you know that??

no country called kwait should even have existed. england separated whats historicaly been the 18th province of iraq from iraq proper - and thus #1 halved iraq's oil field and #2 left iraq with limited access to the sea. hence they attacked kwait.

if you cant throw them (muslims in uk) out, then make friends with them. if they remain isolated in society then they may go astray. if i know right they are the lowest earning and least educated (in stark contrast to hindus being the highest earning and most educated) community in uk. that dont help either.

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brahmin wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I remember several years ago when people were just beginning to wake up to these Islamists, one guy said he would fight to establish sharia law in England, and not rest until the green flag of Islam flew at 10 Downing Street. I thought then, and still think now that he was completely mad.

yes. thats the west. woke up to it only some years ago.

we knew it for 1000 years, we knew 9/11, madrid, bali and 7/7 was inevitable and our diplomats warned everyone for the last 50 years - no one listenned. now that you guys are getting the stick, you side with us eh !!

here we go again..........
here too.

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"no country called kwait should even have existed. "

You could say that about 1/2 dozen "countries" in the middle east which were put together by Western powers after the first world war.

Regarding 'PNIE' thats just a fantasy imo. They might dream of an Islamic world, but what they really want is an end to Western interference in Muslim countries. (Which of course wont happen because of oil). If by chance of geology and geography, 70% of the world's oil was in land occupied by Buddhists, you can bet there would be trouble with militant Buddhists.

Regarding UK Muslims. Of course we cant throw them out. I wouldnt want too. In any case most of them are as British as I am. The problem is that we never welcomed these people when they first came here, so they stuck together and didnt want to integrate, then later some dumb-assed sociologists said encouraging mixing was racist. So we have little Pakistans in several UK towns.

But I never in my life thought some of them would think putting bombs on London transport was doing the will of Allah.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

"no country called kwait should even have existed. "

You could say that about 1/2 dozen "countries" in the middle east which were put together by Western powers after the first world war.

then its lucky that we didnt have 12 saddams and iraq style wars already.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Regarding 'PNIE' thats just a fantasy imo. They might dream of an Islamic world, but what they really want is an end to Western interference in Muslim countries.

for now yes. sfter step 1 there's step 2 etc.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

(Which of course wont happen because of oil). If by chance of geology and geography, 70% of the world's oil was in land occupied by Buddhists, you can bet there would be trouble with militant Buddhists.

"millitant buddhists" is an oxymoron. dont existm unless u mean commie buddhists like pol pot. they fought for political ideology not religious. fighting for religious ideology is characteristic secondary semitic.

also buddhists wouldnt need westerners to show them how to rig oil. believe me japs and chinese are smart. so most likely western companies wouldnt be present there. they's have their own.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Regarding UK Muslims. Of course we cant throw them out. I wouldnt want too. In any case most of them are as British as I am. The problem is that we never welcomed these people when they first came here, so they stuck together and didnt want to integrate, then later some dumb-assed sociologists said encouraging mixing was racist. So we have little Pakistans in several UK towns.

But I never in my life thought some of them would think putting bombs on London transport was doing the will of Allah.

not encouraging mixing is racist !!

well if you have looked around and seen what they have done to all the other countries they went to (india comes to mind;)), then you'd realise that a few bombs were inevitable - and nothing much compared to what others had to get. all the best with them. and make sure you dont make films the type that dutch director did.

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"now that you guys are getting the stick, you side with us eh !! "

Not necessarily, it depends who "you" are.

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well then, wait for a few more 7/7s...then you will know who we are and who they are.

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how?

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by putting 2 and 2 together.

& by at last learning to tell apart, one set of people from another (ie. us from muslims).

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