Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

@edgarblythe,

Ahhh...ahhh...yeah, hi, Edgar. Great to see ya. Glad to see you are still sure there is no GOD...and interested to see that you see that the existence of a GOD is impossible.

I'm sure we will talk.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

We likely will not talk much, Frank. There is nothing (as in, no possibility of a god) to talk about. Two reasons more atheists do not state it so emphatically is because some (not all) hedge their bets and some (not all) bow to peer pressure. Your silly pronouncements cannot touch the core of the situation, however. I see your raving as a silly kid pounding the wall with rocks to gain some attention, from one who simply does not give a damn that the kid's throwing his fit.

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@edgarblythe,

Hummm...I thought I was saying hello to an old friend when I posted, Edgar. Not sure why all the hostility from you, but I do not feel it toward you.

In any case, since you left the door open to "some talk"...even if "not much,"...I really would appreciate you telling me how to find your "sig" for the proof you mentioned.

I haven't been around for a while...and cannot find a "sig."

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You mistake stating my case forcefully for hostility, Frank. I suppose because people arguing on line often lose it, you expect the same here. No, I love you like a brother - a mistaken brother.
My sig line appears at the bottom of my posts, unless you have set your a2k experience to block such.
Signature
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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@edgarblythe,

I see what you mean, Edgar. I re-read your other post and I guess I was just being overly sensitive. Obviously when you said, "Your silly pronouncements cannot touch the core of the situation, however. I see your raving as a silly kid pounding the wall with rocks to gain some attention..." you were just forcefully stating your case rather than showing any hostility.

Not sure how I could have been so mistaken.

Glad you love me, Edgar...and I love you back.

Gonna try to figure out how to unblock "sigs."

Don't want to miss any other proof like that one.

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@Frank Apisa,

Hi Frank, could you give me your best argument for agnosticism in the fewest number of words (your own personal reasons for being one)? What percentage (roughly) of doubt about the existence of a creator god can you have and still be an agnostic in your view (in your case)?

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@igm,

Sure igm…thank you for asking.

I am 100% positive that I do not know the true nature of the Reality of existence. I do not know what is included or what must be included…and I do not know what does not exist or what must be excluded from possibly existing.

I see nothing to suggest that a GOD or gods have to exist in order to explain existence as I perceive it.

I see nothing to suggest that it is impossible for a GOD or gods to exist.

So I would say that I am 100% positive that I am agnostic on the issue.

Further, because I do not know the true nature of the Reality of existence, I do not know if a GOD exists…or if there are no gods (one of the items I cannot specifically include or exclude). I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can logically suggest that there HAS TO BE A GOD…or that THERE CANNOT BE A GOD.

I also do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can make a meaningful guess in either direction.

Once again, 100% agnostic on the issue.

I hope that answers your question. By all means, ask me for clarification of anything you do not completely understand about my position.

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@Frank Apisa,

I agree we gotta, and yes, I did. I'll return to Joisey on the 15th, and would be delighted to see you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Sure igm…thank you for asking.

I am 100% positive that I do not know the true nature of the Reality of existence. I do not know what is included or what must be included…and I do not know what does not exist or what must be excluded from possibly existing.

I see nothing to suggest that a GOD or gods have to exist in order to explain existence as I perceive it.

I see nothing to suggest that it is impossible for a GOD or gods to exist.

So I would say that I am 100% positive that I am agnostic on the issue.

Further, because I do not know the true nature of the Reality of existence, I do not know if a GOD exists…or if there are no gods (one of the items I cannot specifically include or exclude). I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can logically suggest that there HAS TO BE A GOD…or that THERE CANNOT BE A GOD.

I also do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can make a meaningful guess in either direction.

Once again, 100% agnostic on the issue.

I hope that answers your question. By all means, ask me for clarification of anything you do not completely understand about my position.

Thanks for your swift reply Frank!

I'd like to ask some more questions... now that I understand somewhat your particular type of agnosticism:

What benefits and/or drawbacks do you believe that not taking sides in this matter will have on the way you live your life and the way you meet your own dying and/or death?

Wouldn't you say that you may as well be an atheist because your non-acceptance of God or any god, means that you are probably exclulded from the benefits of being a theist (because a god normally requires that the person who is to receive rewards should at the very least believe that the said god exists... I'm thinking along the lines of Pascal's Wager)?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

So I would say that I am 100% positive that I am agnostic on the issue.

Further, because I do not know the true nature of the Reality of existence, I do not know if a GOD exists…or if there are no gods (one of the items I cannot specifically include or exclude). I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can logically suggest that there HAS TO BE A GOD…or that THERE CANNOT BE A GOD.

I also do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which I can make a meaningful guess in either direction.

Once again, 100% agnostic on the issue.

I hope that answers your question. By all means, ask me for clarification of anything you do not completely understand about my position.

Do you also find yourself to be just as agnostic about other things such as purple unicorns with pink spots that live on the moon or spaghetti monsters and so forth or do you find yourself having different views on such things as those?

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

What benefits and/or drawbacks do you believe that not taking sides in this matter will have on the way you live your life and the way you meet your own dying and/or death?

No benefits and no drawbacks. I simply do not know...and cannot make a meaningful guess in either direction.

Quote:

Wouldn't you say that you may as well be an atheist because your non-acceptance of God or any god, means that you are probably exclulded from the benefits of being a theist (because a god normally requires that the person who is to receive rewards should at the very least believe that the said god exists... I'm thinking along the lines of Pascal's Wager)?

Pascal’s Wager is a joke…hardly worth considering.

The god described in the Bible disgusts me…and the most I can muster for it is revulsion. I may be agnostic about the existence of a GOD…but if there IS a GOD, I cannot conceive of IT being anything like the god of the Bible. The notion of benefits and rewards and punishments is the stuff of Little Red Riding Hood as far as I am concerned.

I describe myself as an Agnostic because I think I fit the description of an agnostic. I am not an atheist in the classic sense of that word…and I think the modern day use of the term is an insult to atheism. Edgar, here, is an ATHEIST. The wanna-be atheists who play around with the meaning of the word leave me scratching my head in wonder.

In any case, I am perfectly happy to call myself a non-theist when discussing religion with someone who dislikes the term agnostic.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Do you also find yourself to be just as agnostic about other things such as purple unicorns with pink spots that live on the moon or spaghetti monsters and so forth or do you find yourself having different views on such things as those?

I am an Agnostic...not a jackass.

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@Frank Apisa,

Thanks Frank... it's nice to know your views a little better... Smile

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

This topic seems to be one of the most popular on A2K. Seems like a dead end to me, though...and 5 years and 1000 posts seems to bear me out in that.

Actually Frank it is 19,349 posts and 309,726 views which is a high view/post ratio for a stodgy debate. And it's longer than 5 years too.

There's no dead ends shifting votes from one side to the other. You're too up yourself I'm afraid.

Quote:

I got lambasted.

It's a pity you took the 'ump and didn't see my defence of you. You let yourself be bullied. And you are right--your point isn't trivial. They laid into you because they know that is where their weakness is.

They are in it for the sexual freedom. Or money.

But they don't mean full-blown sexual freedom for everybody. Just some minor stuff for them personally.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Do you also find yourself to be just as agnostic about other things such as purple unicorns with pink spots that live on the moon or spaghetti monsters and so forth or do you find yourself having different views on such things as those?

I am an Agnostic...not a jackass.

I did not think you did but I thought I would ask just for the fun of it.

It seems to me the only difference between a God and the things I listed is that the majority of people believe in a God and not the other things. If you lived in India many people around you might believe in the elephant God but I bet you are not agnostic about him either.

I find it interesting how it is normal for people to believe what they have learned from their environment.
Even though there is no evidence to support a possibility of a God we can be agnostic about it yet we will not be agnostic about other things that are not gods that are as far fetched and lacking as much evidence.

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@reasoning logic,

rl--do you know anybody who believes in purple unicorns with pink spots that live on the moon or spaghetti monsters and sets their stall out accordingly.

And before you start blathering about Elephant Gods in India it might help if you studied Indian culture a bit more.

Everything you say applies to Allah as well and so you help drive moderate Islamic opinion into the hands of extremists and neutralise all the blood and treasure expended on winning the hearts and minds of those moderates.

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@spendius,

Quote:

rl--do you know anybody who believes in purple unicorns with pink spots that live on the moon or spaghetti monsters and sets their stall out accordingly.

No, nor did I suggest that anyone did but there are people that believe in things that lack as much evidence.

Quote:

And before you start blathering about Elephant Gods in India it might help if you studied Indian culture a bit more.

I am always up for and education, was there something in particular that you have in mind about Indian culture?

Quote:

Everything you say applies to Allah as well and so you help drive moderate Islamic opinion into the hands of extremists and neutralise all the blood and treasure expended on winning the hearts and minds of those moderates.

Are you saying that the bombs have been winning their harts and minds?

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@Frank Apisa,

Professor G.J. Mavrodes of Michigan University distinguished between a personal confession that " I have no firm belief in God" and the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence. He thought the former to be not worth bothering with and only the latter invites an argument.

He said it might be a way forward to combine William Clifford's dictum that no one ought to hold a belief on insufficient evidence and the claim that the existence of God is evidentially indeterminable.

Both elements are, of course, strongly contested.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

I did not think you did but I thought I would ask just for the fun of it.

I was pretty sure you did not think I was a jackass, RL, at least, I was hoping you didn’t. I just framed my reply that way for the same reason you framed your question…for the fun of it.

Quote:

It seems to me the only difference between a God and the things I listed is that the majority of people believe in a God and not the other things.

If that is what you think…that is what you think. I think there ARE other differences…and I think if you are objective about it, you can come up with other differences yourself.

I expect to get back to the other parts of your response at some point (NFL games on right now)...but I hope you (and igm) will consider a question of mine:

Is there a GOD (or are there gods) involved in the Reality of existence? Or is Edgar correct in saying: The existence of GOD or gods is an impossibility?

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@spendius,

Quote:

It's a pity you took the 'ump and didn't see my defence of you. You let yourself be bullied. And you are right--your point isn't trivial. They laid into you because they know that is where their weakness is.

I NEVER let myself be bullied...I just grew tired of the nonsense. I did come back every once in a while to see how things were going, but the direction always seemed to be toward discussion chaos.

As you probably remember, my comment was directed as a defense of your comments. I appreciate that you returned the favor. I know the point is not trivial...appearances aside. It is the crux of the matter...and sets the stage for the discussion as it should be framed.

1 Reply

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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