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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 21 Oct, 2005 04:55 pm
Wimps!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 08:33 am
farmerman wrote:
Ive been frustrated in conversations with him that have resulted in me learning more than he. I am no more conviced by Irreducible Complexity because it is as "outcome based" as any other concept in Creationism


FM, since you've spoken with Behe, what is your opinion on why he continues to back IR even after most of his examples of IR have been invalidated?

Even if he's got one example left which nobody has been able ot show as invalid, he must be aware that the basis of IR leads down a path of non-naturalism and must inevitibly hit the wall that defines science itself.

Is it his goal, like other creationists, to try to change the defnition of science by removing naturalism?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 09:06 am
Quote:
Dover's attorney, Robert Muise, asked Behe about methodological naturalism, the element of the scientific method that limits study to natural causes. Behe said it "hobbles" scientific inquiry.


rosborne,
This is what York Daily Record reported on what Behe said about naturalism in court.

I hope farmerman gives a detailed answer to your questions.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 10:59 am
I was hoping fm would cross the asymptote of reducible complexity first.It isn't a wall at the far side-it's the sunny uplands surely?Or an abyss.

Not that we are yet in those regions in practical terms but this is a theoretical discussion isn't it?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 11:06 am
i confess not to have read all the previous posts but surely spendius means the asymptote of irreducible complexity?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 11:38 am
As there is plenty of precedent for quoting on this illuminating thread I thought I might indulge myself.

Rather than use the somewhat simple YDR or selected comments from Mr Behe I thought I would go to a more exalted source which,whatever one thinks about it,has world-wide fame and a lasting nature.

Isis Unveiled by H.P.Blavatsky.

In discussing the Jesuit take over of the Church,which the dear lady is at pains to abhor,there is this on page 360 of the 1960 2 volume edition-

"Until the end comes,may well sincere Christians remember the prophetic lamentations of the thrice great Trismegistus over his own country:'Alas,alas,my son,a day will come when the sacred hieroglyphics will become but idols.The world will mistake the emblems of science for gods,and accuse grand Egypt of having worshipped hell-monsters.But those who will calumniate us thus,will themselves worship Death instead of Life,folly in place of wisdom;they will denounce love and fecundity,fill their temples with dead men's bones,as relics,and waste their youth in solitude and tears.Their virgins will be widows (nuns) [sic] before being wives,and consume themselves in grief;because men will have despised and profaned the sacred mysteries of Isis.' "

Isis,Oh Isis
Oh mystical child
What drives me to you
Is what drives me insane.---Bob Dylan.

Right!Suppose the President of the Dover School Board was inspired by Blavatsky.He looked around him and maybe saw in his world a worship of death and bones and the folly of SUVs and suchlike (ego props in general) and had experience of the solitude and tears and the grief of young women whose biology is restrained by laws of consent and the wall-to-wall profanation of the "sacred mysteries of Isis.

A lot of people would forgive him even if a lot of others think him mad.

It's only a suggestion.

It's no go the Yogi man
It's no go Blavatsky
All we want is a bank balance
And a bit of skirt in a taxi.

That's Louis MacNeice,son of a clergyman.

In the interests of balance.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 11:51 am
Irreducible complexity has no asymptote Steve.It means mystery.Reducible complexity,which is what those who scoff at IC claim is possible is the fixed point where we know everything and at which we are driving.Until we know everything there is a refined zone where faith is required of the scientist.
No amount of boldness in the technique of blinding us with science can cover that zone.And it is in the far reaches of the zone,the extreme asymptote,where the ID case ultimately rests.And where many nice jobs can be created by those with a golden tongue.

What do you think?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 22 Oct, 2005 06:13 pm
Quote:
In forthright speech, Rawlings calls on Cornell to address 'invasion of science by intelligent design'
(By Susan S. Lang, Cornell Chronicle, October 21, 2005)
ITHACA, N.Y. -- Delivering his first State of the University address since taking office as interim president of Cornell University following the resignation of Jeffrey Lehman in June, Hunter Rawlings called on Cornellians to address head-on the complex and cultural -- not scientific, he asserted -- issues of where the religiously based "intelligent design" or I.D., controversy belongs, both inside and outside the classroom and university.
********************************************************
"I am convinced that the political movement seeking to inject religion into state policy and our schools is serious enough to require our collective time and attention," he said. As such, he asked that Cornell's three task forces -- on the life sciences, on digital information and on sustainability -- consider how to confront such questions as "how to separate information from knowledge and knowledge from ideology; how to understand and address the ethical dilemmas and anxieties that scientific discovery has produced; and how to assess the influence of secular humanism on culture and society."
He said that Cornell, which some refer to as the world's land-grant university, is in a unique position to bring humanists, social scientists and scientists together to "venture outside the campus to help the American public sort through these complex issues. I ask them to help a wide audience understand what kinds of theories, arguments and conclusions deserve a place in the academy -- and why it isn't always a good idea to 'teach the controversies.' When professors tend only to their own disciplinary gardens, public discourse is seriously undernourished," he said.
In his address, Rawlings first reviewed how the I.D. issue is playing out across the country, with disputes about evolution making news in at least 20 states and numerous school districts. He then recounted the controversy historically, with Darwin publishing his groundbreaking book, "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection," in 1860; the 1925 Scopes trial that deterred anti-evolution legislation pending in 16 states at the time; and the 1987 Supreme Court ruling that ruled as invalid Louisiana's "Creationism Act" that would have forbade teaching evolution in public schools. Now the controversy is back full throttle in a highly polarized nation, Rawlings said, challenging again what is taught in schools and universities.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Oct, 2005 03:38 am
Quote:
Now the controversy is back full throttle in a highly polarized nation,


wande-I thought you had more or less tried to give the impression that the Dover dispute was a little local difficulty and that the rest of the country was satisfied with the SD position.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 23 Oct, 2005 07:31 am
spendius,

In the last few weeks, I have been concentrating on the trial involving Dover, Pennsylvania. I may have given you the wrong impression.

Before the Dover trial, I posted information on Kansas, Ohio, Utah, New Mexico and other areas where some politicians are promoting intelligent design only because they are "anti-evolution".

There are a lot of people in the United States who refuse to accept evolutionary theory for various reasons. Some politicians are trying to take advantage of this by denigrating evolution education.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Oct, 2005 07:43 am
wande-

You wrote this a few days ago-

Quote:
There are 10,000 school boards in the United States. Only 2 mandated the teaching of intelligent design. 9,998 school boards are much too smart for such simplistic claptrap.
.

That was what I meant when I said that I thought you were trying to give the impression that the dispute was a little local difficulty.This last post gives a different impression.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Sun 23 Oct, 2005 08:38 am
Not (Just) in Kansas Anymore
Science, Vol 288, Issue 5467, 813-815
5 May 2000
[DOI: 10.1126/science.288.5467.813]
Essays on Science and Society
ESSAYS ON SCIENCE AND SOCIETY:
Not (Just) in Kansas Anymore
Eugenie C. Scott*

Eugenie C. Scott a physical anthropologist, is executive director of the National Center for Science Education, Inc., a not-for-profit membership organization that works to improve the teaching of evolution and of science as a way of knowing. It opposes the teaching of "scientific" creationism and other religiously based views in science classes.

She is a coauthor of the National Academy of Science's, Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science, and has consulted with the NAS on the revision of its "Science and Creationism" booklet.

CREDIT: ALLAN BURCH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In August of 1999, after months of wrangling, the Kansas State Board of Education passed its state science education standards. Against the recommendations of a committee of 27 scientists and teachers, the board voted to strip from the standards all mention of the Big Bang, the age of the Earth, and any reference to organisms having descended with modification from common ancestors: in other words, evolutionary astronomy, geology, and biology. Teachers were informed that evolution would not be included in the state high-school assessment exams, greatly decreasing the likelihood that the subject would be taught.

The New York Times, the Washington Post, Associated Press, and other national media covered the story widely. Nature, the Economist, the BBC, and other British media--as they tend to do when antievolutionism makes the news--presented their usual spin of "aren't the colonials an odd bunch?" As the media probed for more stories, the National Center for Science Education (where I work) informed the sometimes incredulous press that, yes, indeed, antievolutionism is a widespread problem in American kindergarten through high school or "K-12" education. The experience of the committee that wrote the Kansas science education standards is mirrored in many other states; such committees are regularly lobbied by antievolutionists either to include some form of creationism or to omit, decrease, or set apart the teaching of evolution from all other sciences. Months before the Kansas school board acted, Nebraska watered down evolution in its science standards. A few years ago, Illinois adopted science standards that ignored the e-word, and Arizona and New Mexico include evolution in their current standards largely because scientists, teachers, and other citizens fought for revisions of these documents after initial passage of what can only be referred to as substandards omitting evolution. Many other states treat evolution in only a cursory fashion.

Even though the Supreme Court has ruled that teaching creationism and creation "science" are unconstitutional, we still get calls from parents, teachers, or school board members asking whether some impending resolution in their district requiring "equal time" for creationism is appropriate. We get a disturbing number of questions about teachers who give equal time to creationism and evolution, even though their districts do not (and cannot) require them to do so. We are still being consulted about school assemblies where, in the name of "fairness," a creationist is invited to tell students that the scientifically well-accepted idea that living things shared common ancestry is a "theory in crisis" with many "serious flaws"--and also that the world is only 10,000 years old. Some of these assemblies violate the U.S. Constitution's requirement that schools be religiously neutral, by providing a forum for a speaker who openly proselytizes students to reject evolution in favor of a literal Biblical interpretation of history.

More frequently, we are asked for help when school districts are considering leaving out the teaching of evolution ("if they can't teach both, they won't teach either," as one board member put it), or limiting or separating out evolution as somehow different from other scientific fields. Disclaimers that teachers must read to students or paste into textbooks are becoming more popular. Typically, they declare that evolution is "only a theory" (in other words, a guess, hunch, or half-baked idea) and therefore by implication nothing that students should take seriously. Shortly after the Kansas incident, Oklahoma's textbook commission voted to place in biology textbooks a disclaimer identical to the one currently in Alabama textbooks, which states that evolution is a theory, not fact, because "no one was present when life first appeared on Earth." No other subject in the science curriculum is so disclaimed.

Whereas "balancing" evolution with creation science was advocated before the Supreme Court struck down laws requiring equal time for creation and evolution, the neocreationist approach is to balance evolution with "evidence against evolution." Scientists unfamiliar with such "evidence" soon discover that evidence against evolution is just a euphemism for creation science. In fact, as I write this, a law is making its way through the Arizona legislature that would require that evidence against evolution be taught along with evolution. Don't be misled: Such evidence-against-evolution regulations are not proposing that teachers present controversies about how evolution occurs, but that teachers pretend there is a serious debate taking place among scientists over whether evolution occurs. A lawsuit scheduled for trial in Minnesota State Court this spring concerns a high-school teacher who wishes to teach an evidence-against-evolution curriculum indistinguishable from creation science. Only the terminology has been changed in order to circumvent the First Amendment's prohibition against establishment of religion.

The degree of public acceptance of evolution in the United States differs sharply from that within the scientific community. In a 1996 survey of a sample selected from American Men and Women of Science, Witham and Larson asked scientists the same Gallup poll questions regularly asked of the general public.* Whereas in 1997, 47% of Americans answered "agree" to Gallup's question about whether humans were created in their present form 10,000 years ago, only 5% of scientists did. (I for one was surprised it was that high!) To Gallup's question on agreement whether evolution occurred without God's involvement, 45% of scientists answered affirmatively, but only 9% of nonscientists. Disproving the idea that all evolutionists are atheists, scientists and nonscientists had the same response to the "theistic evolution" question (evolution occurred, but was guided by God): 40% agreed. So while fewer than half of Americans accept evolution, an overwhelming majority of scientists do.

The United States stands out among developed countries in its low acceptance of one of the major organizing principles of science. I believe these statistics reflect the unique settlement and religious history of our nation, in which frontier communities set up their own school systems largely independent of state and federal influence, much less control. The decentralization of American education is a source of wonder to Europeans and Japanese, for example, who have state curricula that are uniform across all communities in their nations. In the United States, even schools within the same district may not teach the same subjects in the same order, or even in the same year!

American religious history reflects an equally decentralized, "frontier" orientation. We were initially settled, after all, by religious dissidents, who formed congregational rather than hierarchical religious systems in which decisions largely were made locally. The United States also has been the nursery for a wide variety of spontaneously generated, independent sects, often inspired by charismatic leaders. It was in the United States that the Seventh Day Adventists, the Church of Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and extinct sects such as Shakers and Millerites were founded, reflecting our decentralized, nonhierarchical religious past. But perhaps the most important reason modern antievolutionism developed here rather than in, say, Europe, was the founding in 1910-1915 of Fundamentalism, a Protestant view that stresses the inerrancy of the Bible. Fundamentalism was not successfully exported to Europe or Great Britain, but it formed the basis in the United States for the antievolutionism of the 1920s Scopes trial era, as well as the present day.

Because of its deep religious and historical roots, creationism will not go away any time soon. "Young Earth" creation science organizations such as the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the newer (but almost as large) Answers in Genesis ministries have been joined by scores of local and regional organizations. Their constituency is literalist conservative Christians, an estimated 30 to 35% of the American public. But nonliteralist Christians (about 50% of the American population) are being reached by a newer creationist movement, "intelligent design creationism" (IDC), that advocates the idea that evolution (and modern science in general) are stalking horses for philosophical materialism and atheism. IDC stresses existential issues, claiming that if evolution is true, there is a substantial price to pay in loss of purpose and meaning of life. Although they rarely express traditional creationist positions on a young age of the Earth, IDCs echo their predecessor's claims that evolution is a theory in crisis, which scientists are rapidly abandoning.

Some IDC proponents are also deliberately targeting intellectuals. IDC leader Phillip Johnson has published opinion pieces (opposite the editorial page or "op-ed") in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and other major national media. An IDC think tank in Seattle, the Center for Renewal of Science and Culture, supports several postdocs who organize conferences on university campuses and write op-ed pieces and books in an effort to persuade the intellectual elite that IDC and "theistic science" are legitimate scholarly enterprises.

Although IDCs agree on the philosophical issues, when it comes to the scientific issues, they are vague--and very much disunited. Some support a 10,000-year-old Earth; others accept the Big Bang, an old earth, and radiometric dating, but reject biological evolution's core idea that living things descended with modification from common ancestors. Two ideas not already present in creation science have emerged from IDC: biochemist Michael Behe's "irreducible complexity" (developed in his book, Darwin's Black Box) and philosopher William Dembski's "the design inference," the subject of his book of the same name. Behe argues that natural selection is incapable of explaining certain kinds of complex molecular structures that supposedly would not function without a minimal number of interacting components; hence, we must seek an "intelligent" (divine) explanation. Dembski claims that a logical procedure heavily dependent on probabilities can filter out designed phenomena from those produced by either natural processes or chance.

Scientists and philosophers have examined these concepts and have found them wanting. Biologists have rejected irreducible complexity, and philosophers have been similarly unresponsive to the design inference. Although IDC proponents seek validation by university colleagues and intellectuals, they have not yet produced scholarship accepted in scientific circles.§ Just as creation science was rejected by the scientific community, but accomplished its goals politically by "equal time" laws, IDC is being promoted to school boards for inclusion in the science curriculum without having contributed anything substantial to our understanding of either science or philosophy of science.

Scientists and educators have been calling for improvement of both college-level and precollegiate science education. This necessarily involves assuring that local schools and school boards do not further weaken evolution education. According to the neutralist principle in biology, a mutation will eventually replace the wild type unless it is opposed by natural selection. It is an unsubtle metaphor: if scientists do not oppose antievolutionism, it will reach more people with the mistaken idea that evolution is scientifically weak, and further, that scientists are clinging to it only because of a previous commitment to atheism--and perhaps a selfish desire to keep the grant money flowing. The subsequent further reduction of scientific literacy (to say nothing of a decline in confidence in the scientific community) is not something we should passively let happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The author is at the National Center for Science Education, 925 Kearney Street, El Cerrito, CA 94530-2810, USA. E-mail: [email protected]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*L. Witham, Washington Times, 11 April 1997, p. A8.
See, for example, N. W. Blackstone, Q. Rev. Biol. 72, 445 (1997); J. A. Coyne, Nature 383, 227 (1996); R. Dorit, Am. Sci. 85, 474 (1997); A. H. Orr, Boston Rev. 21(6):28 (1997).

See, for example, B. Fitelson, C. Stephens, E. Sober, Philos. Sci. 66, 472-88 (1999); E. Eells, Philos. Books 40(4) (1999).

§G. Gilchrist, Rep. NCSE 17(3), 14 (1997).
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 23 Oct, 2005 12:12 pm
BBB, Scary. Neocreationists win without having to provide any kind of proof; it's all based on religion.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 24 Oct, 2005 02:17 pm
A bit more from Blavatsky.

She says that Aristotle said "that a tradition of the highest antiquity,transmitted to posterity under the form of various myths,teaches that the first principles of nature may be considered as "gods" for the divine permeates all nature.All the rest,details and personages,were added later for the clearer comprehension of the vulgar,and but too often with the object of supporting laws invented in the common interest."

"Fairy tales do not exclusively belong to nursuries;all mankind-except those few who in all ages have comprehended their hidden meanings and tried to open the eyes of the superstitious-have listened to tales in one shape or the other and,after transmitting them into sacred symbols,called the product RELIGION!"

Perhaps,as I have already suggested,SDers are merely trying to avoid being "vulgar" and seeking to be one of "those few".

She also quotes Horace as having said in his Ars Poetica that-"The myths have been invented by wise men to strengthen the laws and teach moral truths."

What moral truths can science possibly offer?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 24 Oct, 2005 02:22 pm
Morals belongs in ethics.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 24 Oct, 2005 03:12 pm
The judge will be stunned at that.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 08:27 am
Last Friday, Dr. Kenneth Miller spoke at a Washington D.C. forum on the intelligent design controversy. He explained his objections to the statement read to biology students at Dover High School:
Quote:
First paragraph basically says, Evolution: we gotta teach it whether we like it or not, cause its in the standards. Evolutionary theory's not a fact: its full of gaps, holes, not reliable. But, there's this other really good theory, and we got books about it, in fact not just a book, we got two classroom sets, and they're in the library. Go study up. Not a single word about gaps or holes in this other theory. And then finally, it basically says, we are a standards-driven district, we gotta test you on this, whether we want to or not.
So it basically is a statement that is systematically designed to undermine students' confidence in mainstream science, not just the theory of evolution, but in the whole validity of the scientific process, and the scientific method. It basically tells them, you can't trust science. And I think that's one of reasons why the teachers didn't like this at all.
And then the last point is an observation that I've made before, but I heard the Big Bang again, so I want to make the observation again, and that is: advocates of intelligent design like to paint themselves as the lone heroes fighting against scientific dogma. They got a really revolutionary idea, and they're gonna convince everybody in science, give 'em a coupla decades. And you know, maybe they will. Maybe they will. And they cite the Big Bang as an example of an idea that was once regarded with suspicion, or as heresy, and gradually won over. But the interesting thing, is not the question as you whether or not revolutionary ideas occasionally win out in science. The interesting idea, the interesting question, is *how* do revolutionary ideas win out. And the Big Bang won out because of scientific research, because Arto & Penzious found the background radiation to the Big Bang. They completed the theory. They stitched it together. It was a predictive theory, that says you ought to go out and find this in nature.
Now the curious thing, is the advocates of that theory did not try to get themselves injected into curricula. They didn't produce pamphlets on how you could get the Big Bang taught in your school district and avoid the constitutional questions. They did the research, they won the scientific battle. That's how science actually works. And for all the high-minded statements about design, about the philosophy of Aristotle, about fairness, and about the implicit theological assumptions of evolution, the straightforward and simple matter, as Dr. Krauss said, is that science works, and it is particularly good at predicting stuff that isn't true. If intelligent design has the facts of nature on its side, it'll win out. And I don't see any particular reason to fight this legal route, unless, unless, the battle you are fighting is primarily political, cultural, social, and religious, and not scientific. And in this case, to use a nice lawyer term these guys will understand, res ipse loquitor, the facts speak for themselves.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 10:59 am
wande-

Do your top people really speak like that or is the Dr taking the piss.

But anyway-at the end he agrees with me.The argument is political,cultural,social and religious.In my experience not one in a thousand understand science although there are quite a few who like to think they do.

The basic problem seems to me to be that the full explanation of the ID position is impossible to deploy due to the bourgeois sensibilities of all the protagonists.This does not mean though that nobody is aware of it.I have slipped euphemistic hints of it into some of my posts and they have all been ignored.Unless you are prepared to address the idea of the "vulgar" opposed to the "few" you are in a dialectic of airy nothings.As Lenin famously remarked-"There are the ones who do and the ones to whom it is done." Nobody likes the idea of being one of the ones to whom it is done but I'm afraid that is how things are and no amount of posturing on the scientific method will alter it.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 11:23 am
spendius,

I think Dr. Miller is lamenting the fact that the controversy has nothing to do with science when he says it is political, cultural, social and religious. The problem is that young students are given the erroneous impression that there is a scientific controversy about evolutionary theory. If intelligent design is to be considered a scientific theory, its proponents should debate it with other scientists and present actual data. Instead, intelligent design proponents are trying to insert their theory into secondary school curriculum. It is highly suspicious that they are fighting their "revolution" at the secondary school level rather than at the university level.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 12:01 pm
wande-

Dr Miller and myself agree that it has nothing to do with science.I don't lament it though and I am not sure he does.

I don't think it "suspicious" that the dispute is at the secondary school level.It is the obvious place to have it.What is suspicious is the failure to address any of the important points I have raised.And I haven't even mentioned the big points yet.Science is a tool of the culture not the culture and it can take care of itself under much tougher restrictions than these IDers are going to make.
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