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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 12:21 pm
spendius,

Do you really think we should inflict a "cultural war" on our younger students? Why is the war not being fought at the university level?
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 01:26 pm
wande-

Isn't it the 11 parents who are warring with the board?From this distance it is reasonable to presume that the board represent public opinion in Dover.They were elected.The plaintiffs were not.

What the kids of those 11 might have to put up with from their schoolmates is ridiculous when the game isn't worth a candle.

Actually,today,there's a sniff of locally elected school boards arriving here.Lord help us.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 01:29 pm
wande-

I'm sorry.

I don't think the case would arise in universities although The Higher Learning In America suggests otherwise.
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crashlanded vr2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 01:42 pm
Introduce it at university level where it can be debated and argued to be unscientific crapola ? hell no ! its way easier to influence and confuse the impressionable young minds in a secondary school.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 25 Oct, 2005 03:26 pm
You need to confuse the impressionable young minds with something and what better than the Good Samaritan and the idea that their gaurdian angel is looking out for them and that Jesus wants them for a sunbeam.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 09:00 am
Quote:
Naturally, he's a chip off the old DNA
(By Amy Worden, Philadelphia Inquirer, October 26, 2005)
HARRISBURG - Charles Darwin might not be in the federal courtroom to hear witnesses challenge his theory of evolution. But his DNA is.
As one of Darwin's most vocal modern-day critics testified in a landmark lawsuit last week, the eminent scientist's great-great-grandson sat six feet away in the jury-box-turned-press box.
In the courtroom, Matthew Chapman, a New York author and screenwriter, is one of the 75 people from the United States and abroad covering the Dover, Pa., school board trial, the first court proceeding ever on the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution.
But outside the court, Chapman recognizes that he plays other roles: lightning rod for supporters of intelligent design and a living connection to the 19th-century scientist whose theories on natural selection and the origin of species provide the foundation for modern biology.
Chapman, 55, a British-born American citizen, says he is stunned that debate continues in some parts of the United States 123 years after Darwin's death and 80 years after the Scopes "monkey trial."
"Evolution is such a nonissue everywhere else in the world," said Chapman, who counts among his screenwriting credits the John Grisham thriller Runaway Jury.
Chapman, who is on assignment for Harper's Magazine and also is working on a documentary for the BBC, has tried to remain an observer on the sidelines, joining the press gaggle, tape recorder in hand, after court each day. He also has been spending time in Dover, talking to students and sitting quietly through what he sees as antievolution speeches by local ministers.
"This is really the first courtroom scientific debate, since science wasn't allowed in the courtroom in the Scopes trial," said Chapman.
Last week, he listened to testimony from the lead witness for the defense - Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe - and intently scribbled in his notebook.
Behe, author of the bestselling book Darwin's Black Box, testified that what he calls the "purposeful arrangement of parts" in certain biochemical processes is evidence that intelligent design is a scientific idea.
"I'm appalled by the lack of respect for the evidence," Chapman said. "Darwin spent 23 years compiling evidence he gathered to present his theory."
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 09:24 am
wande-

That goes nowhere near any salient points.

It is of no consequence how many years Darwin spent compiling evidence.If Chapman said it it would demonstrate that intelligence was not evolving in his family tree.I'm surprised Amy's editor allowed it to pass the spike unless he's an IDer but he has no excuse for "and intently scribbled in his notebook."

But it is interesting that 75 journalists from all over the world are there.Hotels in Dover doing a roaring trade.Have some ladies of the night arrived yet.The local economy must be picking up goodstyle because we all know what journalist's expense claim forms look like.

Have you ever read the scene in Madame Bovary where Hyppolyte's club foot is operated on in order to "put the village on the map".Or the infrastructure which the Council of Trent gathered around it when it was deciding some dogma dispute or other.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 09:55 am
spendius wrote:
wande-

That goes nowhere near any salient points.

It is of no consequence how many years Darwin spent compiling evidence.If Chapman said it it would demonstrate that intelligence was not evolving in his family tree.I'm surprised Amy's editor allowed it to pass the spike unless he's an IDer but he has no excuse for "and intently scribbled in his notebook."


spendius,

It seems you may be confused about what intelligent design theory actually claims. Intelligence may indeed evolve in everybody's family tree (that would be an entirely natural process). However, intelligent design theory makes a supernatural claim: some supernatural intelligent being has purposefully created certain organisms or parts of organisms.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 10:14 am
wande-

I'm not confused about anything.It was only a joke.

Are there any TV crews there on top of those 75 journalists.

What's the population of Dover?Between 20 and 30 thou.?

I hope you don't think that I think that-

Quote:
some supernatural intelligent being has purposefully created certain organisms or parts of organisms.


because if you do I'm afraid it is you who are confused.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 10:19 am
wande-

BTW-The joke was about Chapman being nearer to monkeys than his famous anscestor.

Going back-I don't think Origin is "the" foundation of modern biology.It is a little less simple than that.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 04:23 pm
spendius
Quote:
Going back-I don't think Origin is "the" foundation of modern biology.It is a little less simple than that.

As the journal Nature and Fyodor Dhobzhansky may disagree with you. Anyway the statement is more an homage to Darwin , not a postion whose work is more important.

Sometimes , in your effort to be a discussional QA, I find your points confusing and inconsistent for little reason other than your mood swings. Am I close?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 04:51 pm
Oh no fm.I don't do mood swings unless I have toothache.

When Huxley read Origin he said "Why didn't I think of that?"

The design and efficiency of The Beagle was possibly more foundational.Or optics or metallurgy.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 05:00 pm
The Beagle was sort of an undercover vessel with a mission that had lots of cover activities, Darwin was just one of these covers.
At least Darwin had his "manservant" , imagine the hardships .
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Oct, 2005 05:28 pm
No thanks.I like to sleep at night.

Could the ability to tolerate hardship be even more foundational that optics,metallurgy or ship construction and possibly involving religious indoctrination.Or,dare we say it,actively seek it.Or was it a wife avoidance scheme.

I distinctly remember thinking when I saw Branson dive into the icy waters out of his flopped balloon that he had insulted his bride a mite too far.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:21 am
The Education Minister for Victoria, Australia ruled today that intelligent design is faith and will not be taught as science in government schools. Below is an excerpt from the Australian on-line news service, "The Age":
Quote:
Victoria's government schools will treat intelligent design as a religious faith, not science, Education Minister Lynne Kosky has ruled.
In her first statement on the subject, Ms Kosky reaffirmed the principle that government schools were secular and did not promote any religion.
She said the two areas in which religion could be discussed were optional religious education lessons and VCE studies comparing religions.
"In line with the above principles, schools can decide whether to offer intelligent design as part of religious instruction," Ms Kosky said. "Parents will be given the opportunity to withdraw their child from the lesson." Intelligent design argues that gaps in Darwin's theory of evolution point to an "intelligent designer" of life.
Supporters of the theory, which include US President George Bush argue that the theory is scientific. Critics call it creationism in another guise.
Last week a coalition representing 70,000 Australian scientists and teachers likened it to the flat-earth theory.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 01:18 pm
wandel.
Why is it that so many of the planets other countries are able to see bullshit and call it what it is? I suppose our diversity is both our strength and weakness.
I see that, In Dover, the magnifying glass is being focused on where does the ID movement in the school get its funding. If its a scientific enterprise, it seems to be funded exclusively by the local Eastern Baptist Convention
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 01:26 pm
Gee wande-Did they actually say that or is The Age in the same league as those reporters you have been quoting.

Do you actually have faith in media chanting.You quote it a lot as if it has some significance.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 01:56 pm
farmerman,
The interesting thing is that Australia has a constitution similar to ours. Their government people can easily see that intelligent design theory does not belong in secular school science education.

spendius,
Are you joking again? That was a straightforward news account about an actual government policy in Australia.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:13 pm
fm-It doesn't matter who is funding it.The important thing is that it is being funded and probably from a business perspective.

wande-it didn't look straightforward to me.Did the 70,000 have a secret ballot or is the "coalition" a small group which has took over the spokesperson role because they don't like boozing.

You can't compare ID to Flat earthing.That's ridiculous.It would make more sense to compare the 11 plaintiffs to flat earthers.As members of attention seeking congeries so to say.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 28 Oct, 2005 05:28 pm
spendius
Quote:
fm-It doesn't matter who is funding it.The important thing is that it is being funded and probably from a business perspective.

Boy fella you can be dense as Uranium some time. It certainly does matter from whence cometh their funding. The IDers are claiming a co-equality with "other"scientific disciplines and the ACLU is stating that its not so. The entire case is based upon , not the merits of ID , but on the establishment clause of the US Constitution Amendment 1.

Therefore, since funding is exclusively from religious organizations with a Creationist agenda , this is one little spoke in the wheel of ACLUs case. Its not the only point because they want their case to be proven from several points of evidence.
When the lawyers say the preponderance of evidence supports their case, they are talking about a boatload of separate and individual points , some more compelling than others but all knit together to make the point that ID is just another religious point of view and this has been clearly struck down in the famous case of 1987 Supreme court decision against Creationism. punct
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