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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 04:39 am
The problem with you guys is that you need to be kept in line by some kind of TINA argument. Or being SC (scientifically correct).

Spendi's metaphysical wandering is obviously alien to you.

Lateral thinking is not your thing, is it?

That's why you make him a punching bag.

But it's amazing and pretty funny the way he retorts.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 04:42 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
How can anybody deal with that lot Shira. It is shot full of assertions about myself and all your points are based on those assertions.


Many of the assertions should be half-evident, but are you honestly surprised that I rely on my reasoning multiple times? You know that I keep making the same point over and over again, right?

spendius wrote:
Anybody who thinks the possibility of purple leprechauns from Neptune inventing clam chowder is equally possible with funny stuff going on at Dover is obviously off their head. Street wise human beings on the make have no need for magical devices to manipulate the minds of people on earth.


It doesn't change the possibility, though. The plausibility, yes, but again you should remember that it (your conspiracy) was an unsupported deviation from the topic.

spendius wrote:
Your and effemm's need to have Dover represent pure scientific integrity is understandable. It is also laughable.


And your mendacious invention of my 'needs' and even my views is noted.

spendius wrote:
Your style of debate is unsuitable for a scientific discussion.


The only people I debate with in this style are people I suspect are being dishonest with me. Hint hint.

spendius wrote:
It flags up that, like the other anti-IDers on here, you haven't a scientific bone in your body and know nothing of significance about evolution theory nor why this debate has been so fierce for 150 years.


Really, all that from my style? Sorry, spendi, but you couldn't be any more confused. I "debate" with you like this because the level of communication began so low and only degraded. I consider the problems here not something that can be remedied by merely listing facts and explaining aspects of science to you. No, the issue comes from a deeper problem: incoherence, a dearth of anything straightforward, hiding your views and actual reasonings, etc.

spendius wrote:
You are, in my opinion, either very naive, or are using science to browbeat The Bible and religion in order to pursue your selfish interests regarding such things as homosexuality, birth control, abortion, divorce and adulterey which are all condemed under proper Christian discipline.


More than in your opinion, in your fantasies and imagination.

spendius wrote:
You are wasting your time insulting me. It has no effect other than that intelligent readers here, and I'm not bothered about unintelligent ones, will know what it signifies.


That I'm being straightforward with you and treating your bullshit with the proper reverence. You may notice that I'm much nicer when you make any attempt to give a damn.

spendius wrote:
And it might be a good idea to desist with such things as "yawn" and that I'm a waste of time when you then take all that interest in my posts.


Quote those statements in full and in context, you'll find they make perfect sense.

spendius wrote:
I hope all anti-IDers are in agreement that Miles Copeland was "slack-jawed" and that evolution doesn't operate the "might is right" principle. That will help the rest of us to determine the validity of their position which is hopeless.


I asked you some specific questions regarding your apparent confusion over what evolutionary theory, or an 'evolutionary point of view' would actually entail. Are you going to simply avoid them?

spendius wrote:
You must be habituated to winning arguments on unsupported assertions and insults either because your companions are stupid, cowed
or too polite to tell you.


Nope, by the time I'm dealing with people like this, I've come to expect a dissapointing result, which isn't to say that I'm not still holding out for a sign of integrity.

Where are my unsupported assertions, spendius? I believe I've appropriately couched my guesses in uncertain language, precisely because I was guessing. What of my questions of you, my very basic request that you stay coherent, on-topic, and make + support your point?

spendius wrote:
I stand by everything you have quoted me as saying. If effemm supports you it only means that effemm supports you. Rather you than me.


If you stand by what you've said, then maybe you'll clarify it rather than rambling on to new references.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 04:46 am
@Francis,
Lateral thinking is A-OK when it doesn't take the form of dishonest trolling.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 04:49 am
More on-topic: Mississippi seems eager to waste the time of the members of its legal system, not to mention taxpayer dollars, in antievolution chicanery. You can find the language of their laughable little messages to be placed on books discussing evolution just about anywhere via the google.
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 05:01 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Asserting your opinion as a "written in the marble" eternal truth is far from lateral thinking, and, as far as I'm concerned, is highly laughable.

Which leads directly to my first assumption in the previous post.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 05:46 am
@Francis,
Funny, I only stated my opinion. If you'd like to twist it into me claiming some kind of "eternal truth", thus exposing yourself as dishonest, you go right ahead.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 06:09 am
@Shirakawasuna,
I hope all anti-IDers are in agreement that Miles Copeland was "slack-jawed" and that evolution doesn't operate the "might is right" principle.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 06:10 am
@Shirakawasuna,
In short, those who don't agree with you are dishonest (or even trolls).

I'll live with it...
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:12 am
@Francis,
The problem with spendi isnt us nor an inability to delve into the topics he raises. He, in a effort to acquire the "clever little boy" title, tries to argue from a point of comfort. He preens himself in public by becoming the master of diversion. Its very obvious that, while hes not acquainted with the subject, its components, or even the news surrounding it, that doesnt stop ole spendi.
I find him tiresome for his insatiable needs for constant attention. His logic is highly flawed whenever he even gets close to discussing the subject, and his need to insert his metaphysics is met by a wall of disinterest by the rest of the board.

Now, if you wish to give him partial credit ofr spelling ID correctly, by all means, its your euro. I , personally find him uninformed and consequently, unable to construct a decent thought on the subject (Which, by the way, has nicely slipped into running commentary of the latest news re: teaching science in US) . I find his missives not the least creative and consequently have put him on ignore. Its a nice reprieve from his silliness.
I think many of us respectfully enetr the UK thread when we see something interesting and we feel we can contribute. Not so with spendi on subjects that interest USers.
If youd look at his posts, they are merely the gainsay and contrarian remarks of the content of whoever posted immediately previous. Thats not even close to be "lateral thinking" Thats pretty much a poorly constructed cry for attention. It matters not whether its SHira, me, set, wandel, rosborne, edgar, or whoeever. WHenever someone posts something, ,our little annoying friend will rudely interject a contrary comment saturated with metaphysics and a running insistance that its what "True ID" is all about. As I recall, we gave him the time of day to discuss his (only )point about 2 or 3 years ago. He then, keeps bringing it up like a cow and wants us to respond afresh.
If you are so impressed with spendi's stylistic quirks, then by all give him his own thread and help him with his preening. AS far as this thread, Speaking just for myself, I dont think hes ever added anything substantive, tangential, or even slightly asymptotic. Hes been pretty much a jerk throughout (In the early days, we all were stepping on eggs not to hurt his feelings but ever since he drew first "rudeness" blood a few years ago, people have been letting him know what they really feel about his contributions. Shira has actually been taking the time to dispell any myth that whatever spendi babbles is Auric, because it isnt.

Quote:
In short, those who don't agree with you are dishonest (or even trolls).
Thats a simplistic and incorrect assessment , spendi has been demonstrating rude stalking skills , and if you merely ignore them because you are somehow in agreement, then you are practicing selective reading.
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:16 am
@Francis,
Quote:
The problem with you guys is that you need to be kept in line by some kind of TINA argument. Or being SC (scientifically correct).
With that in mind, MAybe we should all start harrassing everyone on the UK Thread . However, most of us are respectful enough to know that you folks are sensitive to historical references or jokes about certain personal subjects, so we mostly stay away unless something of a parallel su bject emerges.
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:24 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
More on-topic: Mississippi seems eager to waste the time of the members of its legal system, not to mention taxpayer dollars, in antievolution chicanery. You can find the language of their laughable little messages to be placed on books discussing evolution just about anywhere via the google.



I thought the "sticker" laws had been adjudicated with the 2004 CobbCounty (Ga) case involving the :
"
Quote:
THIS TEXTBOOK CONTAINS MATERIAL ON EVOLUTION. EVOLUTION IS A THEORY, NOT A FACT, REGARDING THE ORIGIN OF LIVING THINGS, THIS MATERIAL SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH AN OPEN MIND, STUDIED CAREFULLY, AND CRITICALLY CONSIDERED.
".
Sticker. This one was tried and then removed under court order. Are you saying that Mississippi is now doing the same damn thing?
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:34 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
Many of the assertions should be half-evident, but are you honestly surprised that I rely on my reasoning multiple times? You know that I keep making the same point over and over again, right?


"I nearly smelt a rat" is an expression here for "half-evident". I am surprised actually. I don't see any points that are not assertions.

Quote:
It doesn't change the possibility, though. The plausibility, yes, but again you should remember that it (your conspiracy) was an unsupported deviation from the topic.


I see no (zero) possibilty of leprechauns from anywhere inventing anything.

There is every possibility that Dover was a scam. Others have raised that possibility. Congress has raised it. There is circumstantial evidence which I have pointed to on many occasions. And I didn't raise the matter. It was raised by anti-IDers who jumped all over it in the belief it proved their case. Which it didn't. Nobody said it was a deviation from the topic then. And the thread dealt with it extensively. It's just me who gets accused of that in the service of evading my questions. It's one of the pointless points you raise "over and over again". Right? I don't do it.

Quote:
And your mendacious invention of my 'needs' and even my views is noted.


My evidence, which may well not apply to you, comes from a large number of discussions on these matters. It invariably turns out that attacks on Christianity are based upon attempts to justify things like sex before marriage, homosexuality, birth control, abortion conveniences, women priests, adultery and feminism generally. I don't really see a motive strong enough to justify those attacks in their absence. The live and let live idea undermines the attacks in that case. And I consider it impolite to ask A2Kers about such things. My experience leads me, rightly or wrongly, to assume they are in play.

Quote:
The only people I debate with in this style are people I suspect are being dishonest with me. Hint hint.


Well only "suspecting" is an improvement on declaring me dishonest.

Quote:
Really, all that from my style? Sorry, spendi, but you couldn't be any more confused. I "debate" with you like this because the level of communication began so low and only degraded. I consider the problems here not something that can be remedied by merely listing facts and explaining aspects of science to you. No, the issue comes from a deeper problem: incoherence, a dearth of anything straightforward, hiding your views and actual reasonings, etc.


You have never come close to any science. The Ev. pov. is that physical, mechanical science can be applied to life. Once you accept that Ev. theory follows automatically and easily. It really is very simple. All you need starting from there is a reasonable intelligence, a keen specialised curiosity, a need to justify social inequalities which make Gaza look tame and a rich father. But preferring to spend five years in the company of a mad captain, who later committed suicide, on a dangerous mission in sordid conditions, to the company of the young ladies in the County Set, or even those lower down the social scale, and at that age, is a bit odd. Poor Emma. In her prime too.

Quote:
That I'm being straightforward with you and treating your bullshit with the proper reverence. You may notice that I'm much nicer when you make any attempt to give a damn.


"Bullshit" and "reverence" I assume to be an attempt at low down irony. If not they are ridiculous. And I don't dive a shite how nice or not nice you are.
My record on A2k measures whether I give a damn or not.

Quote:
Quote those statements in full and in context, you'll find they make perfect sense.


They don't to me.

Quote:
I asked you some specific questions regarding your apparent confusion over what evolutionary theory, or an 'evolutionary point of view' would actually entail. Are you going to simply avoid them?


I have no confusions. See above. See all along the threads. That statement is an evasion. I'm avoiding nothing. It's you lot who do the avoiding. Head in soundproof bag avoiding is in use. (Not you though Shira.)

Quote:
Nope, by the time I'm dealing with people like this, I've come to expect a dissapointing result, which isn't to say that I'm not still holding out for a sign of integrity.


There is no integrity involved when the sexual questions are evaded: what the senator called the "controversial issues". What the hell else could he have meant? And also when the fact of the length and fierceness of this debate is brushed aside as if it requires no explanation.

Quote:
Where are my unsupported assertions, spendius?


You are kidding aren't you?


Quote:
I believe I've appropriately couched my guesses in uncertain language, precisely because I was guessing. What of my questions of you, my very basic request that you stay coherent, on-topic, and make + support your point?


Eh? Do you accept or not that a psychosomatic realm is real, or even a possibilty, which the Armstrong school, and others, do not? Do you accept or not that emotional states can, or do, have consequences for cell function and social organisation? Do you accept that man is a machine as La Mettrie, following Descartes, said?

That's what I call basic. If you want to go with blood clotting cascades and such like, however profitable or convenient, then we are talking past each other. I consider those off topic and supporting no point relevant to school classroom teaching.


spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:35 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Francis has got your number Shira.

Any plonker can accuse people of "dishonest trolling." It isn't an argument. It's crap.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:42 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
Mississippi seems eager to waste the time of the members of its legal system


I hardly think that the wives and families of the legal profession would consider it a "waste of time". Nor those businesses which they patronise. Nor Media which has a continuous supply of exciting stuff to go on the back of adverts.

Nor the teachers and school boards who can talk about teaching endlessly rather than actually teach anything. Have I missed anybody who thinks it is a jolly good use of time and not a waste of it at all.

Your use of "waste of time" is a demonstration of your unscientific subjectivity.

Taxpayers are fodder. Isn't that obvious from the bail-outs.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 07:43 am
@farmerman,
That's because it doesn't even hold up as scientific theory. A theory in this case is a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena. It has to be backed up by facts, not some biblical, mythological, metaphysical clap-trap. Any rationally sane person will never buy the neither fish nor fowl concoction the creationists (IDers) have foisted on the public. What "facts" they present are wild, helter skelter, premises based on a belief or faith that they are true. The judges have prefaced their conclusions on the fact that these "facts" do no add up to a scientific theory, but a strictly religious mythological premise that doesn't hold water. This wouldn't shake out in a respectable science course as an alternative science. It's religion.
parados
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 10:10 am
@spendius,
Quote:
It invariably turns out that attacks on Christianity are based upon attempts to justify things like sex before marriage, homosexuality, birth control, abortion conveniences, women priests, adultery and feminism generally. I don't really see a motive strong enough to justify those attacks in their absence.


It's always interesting when Spendi slips out with a statement that seems to reveal his own phobias. Somehow I think he read Henry Miller as a young boy and has never recovered from his expectations.
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 10:30 am
@parados,
Quote:
Somehow I think he read Henry Miller as a young boy and has never recovered from his expectations.


God, i laughed my ass off at that one. What a wonderful zinger that was!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 10:45 am
@farmerman,
effemm's latest monumental effort at subjective whinging is clear proof that he underestimates all our intelligence.

The idea that any argument he can't handle can be dismissed with the "clever little boy" smear is not only a pathetic assertion but suggests that "dumb old codger" is a superior state. My priest-ridden school were so impressed by my clever little boyishness that they applauded when the Bishop presented me with prizes. If the thick dummies were gnashing their teeth it was of no concern to me or the Bishop.

effemm finds me "tiresome" for obvious reasons. And reading the productions of those who don't "preen" (code for no effort) really is a waste of time and all the best authors will tell you so. All the top sportsmen preen.
What's up with preening? Only those with nothing to preen about would think it a fault. When I started on Acronyms nobody preened. Now they all do. Who would employ a carpenter who didn't preen? Preening is a fundamental of evolution. It is how males are selected by females leading to preening being selected in. Walruses roar, gorillas pound their chest, peacocks flash their tail feathers, merecats stand tall, short arses sport gold chains, stags lock antlers, cocks crow and studs put a banana in their underpants. It's all part of evolution's grand plan. Isn't it? What sort of female would stand still for a non preen.

And desperately resorting, for what must by now be near the ten thousandth time, to the old tried and tested method of declaring that I am not acquainted with the subject, its components, or even the news surrounding it is as effective now as it ever was. Wasted words I'm afraid and we all know, I hope, what Dylan said about those.

So, and how fitting, he finds me "tiresome". And he is not seeking attention when he comes on here with a load of blustering bollocks despite having the only supporter of Christianity on Ignore in order to spew more of his self interested blustering bollocks without let or hindrance and fit up 50 million kids with it without any reference to the consequences either biological or social.

My logic, it goes without saying in these circumstances is "highly flawed", which opens up the possibility of medium flawed or lowly flawed either of which I assume would have his qualified approval. It also goes without saying that my metaphysics, that cell function is affected by emotional states for instance or that hypnosis can be used as an anaesthetic, is "met by a wall of disinterest"; a rather unfortunate metaphor I would claim. Especially in the service of another false assertion.

He then continues in the same vein for a bit, and equally pointlessly. And stupidly considering he's ignoring me.

He then moves on to trying to claim credit for entering the UK thread respectfully when we in the UK do not give a flying fornication whether he enters the thread with his finger up his arse or doesn't enter it at all. Respect is not particularly valued in male company in the UK. It is seen as an attempt to curry favour when all other methods have proved fruitless.

And to enjoin you all to "look at" my posts when he daren't himself is somewhat sillier than even I dare try. And if I responded to posts that were not "immediately previous" I would consider myself a bit out of the loop and expect others to follow suit.

He gives us a cute version of what "lateral thinking" is not but has inexplicably denied himself the opportunity to say what it is as if him mentioning it is a sufficient reason for us all to think that it is a characteristic of his and at least as admirable as cleaning "sea-food" out of his bowthrusters, shooting at sitting ducks and having that ugly dog of his wag its tail when he comes home from a hard day on the ******* fossils.

I have been told many times that I take lateral thinking far too far.

And I can't even muster up a proper cry for attention. I never could actually. I am merely defending the 85% of Americans from these scurrilous attacks on their cherished beliefs. They look to be either incapable or uninterested in doing it themselves. Although I was impressed by Mr Obama's "God bless you all" and God bless America" at the end of his Noses to the Grindstone speech yesterday.

Whether effemm, Shira, Set, wande, ros, edgar and "whoever" constitute anything other than a claque is open to question. They are a self selecting bunch and that's for sure. They don't overawe me. In fact three of them have had me on Ignore so it must be that I overawe them all on my little ownio and with my stupid, idiotic, unlearned silliness too. How about that folks?

He then compounds his incoherence by saying that I expect them to respond to my points "afresh" when they have never dared respond at all. I wouldn't like to try to estimate the number of words that have been written on the subject of the psychosomatic realm and the study of the effect of emotional states on cell function and social organisation. It is a lot more than the national deficit in cents. And those matters are at the core of this argument and declaring them off topic and substituting something else in their place is a cheapskate trick to try to get that canon of scientific knowledge on Ignore. I bring the matters up precisely because there has been no response and I will continue to do so until there is. It is easy to think you have the high ground when you have asserted where it is.

I must have raised the social consequences of atheism in schools hundreds of times and never a peep in response. And schools exist for no other reason than to have social consequences.

And the ridiculous assertion that they were all "stepping on eggs" so as not to "hurt my feelings" can be dealt with by anybody who takes the trouble to read the thread. I have even been complimented on my capacity to absorb insults without turning a hair. And insults there have been a plenty. effemm in the vanguard as this post proves. It is no different than stuff he was saying years ago. So that's another pile of horseshit.

Now he's trying it on with Francis for having the temerity to suggest that all is not well in the anti-ID corner and it is a fact that that is the case. And what with? More assertions. Just as meaningless as all his others. And for one reason only. So that effemm can preen and jack off his ego and direct education policy from within his little ivory tower without the slightest reference to the real world.





0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 11:00 am
@parados,
Quote:
It's always interesting when Spendi slips out with a statement that seems to reveal his own phobias. Somehow I think he read Henry Miller as a young boy


I wish I had. Alas it came too late. I had been pinned into a specimen case by the time it did happen. As with all the other great writers. I never really understood Hank Janson or Rider Haggard until I read Frank Harris. Have you read Miller on Money parados? Or on the International Venus Flytrap?

Not that I mind. It is a nice specimen case but I don't allow that to detract from what I learned from those guys.

I'll bet I have read more American literature than you lot put together. You'll learn very little from Media. I'm reading Lefeber and Van Doren at this most interesting time in our collective fortunes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jan, 2009 11:16 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
With that in mind, MAybe we should all start harrassing everyone on the UK Thread . However, most of us are respectful enough to know that you folks are sensitive to historical references or jokes about certain personal subjects, so we mostly stay away unless something of a parallel su bject emerges.


Get on with it effemm. Harrass away to your heart's content. I'm looking forward to it. It is a bit tame over there. Don't hide away like a chaste, blushing virgin being respectful and delicately timid.

Don't worry about our sensitivity. That's something you've invented, as usual, to excuse your fear of entering the fray. Bugger off.



 

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