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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jul, 2008 07:48 pm
http://paulag.home.coastalnet.com/gifs/CreationismJobs.gif
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 03:14 am
The consumers of America vote at the checkouts to export jobs. And not just to China.

Blaming the religious people is a scapegoating procedure.

Have you no answer to my last but one post Pauli?

What's your solution?

The anti-ID cause has been discredited enough on here without more reductions unto absurdity which your found wit represents.

I hope you realise that it insults your colleagues' intelligence.

Catholic services are being allowed again in China.

And the lab your cartoon character is in, and the procedure he is using, is 19th century "suck it and see" science. Maybe he's cloning future gold medallists eh? Or preparing something to put in the water supply. Or checking the blood group of somebody who had been executed for running a red light so his organs can be safely sold.

American scientists must just love being defended like that.

Perhaps you would like to see American workers brought level with Chinese workers.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 08:43 am
Quote:
Losing Sight of Progress
(By Christopher Hitchens, Slate.com, July 21, 2008)

It is extremely seldom that one has the opportunity to think a new thought about a familiar subject, let alone an original thought on a contested subject, so when I had a moment of eureka a few nights ago, my very first instinct was to distrust my very first instinct. To phrase it briefly, I was watching the astonishing TV series Planet Earth (which, by the way, contains photography of the natural world of a sort that redefines the art) and had come to the segment that deals with life underground. The subterranean caverns and rivers of our world are one of the last unexplored frontiers, and the sheer extent of the discoveries, in Mexico and Indonesia particularly, is quite enough to stagger the mind. Various creatures were found doing their thing far away from the light, and as they were caught by the camera, I noticed?-in particular of the salamanders?-that they had typical faces. In other words, they had mouths and muzzles and eyes arranged in the same way as most animals. Except that the eyes were denoted only by little concavities or indentations. Even as I was grasping the implications of this, the fine voice of Sir David Attenborough was telling me how many millions of years it had taken for these denizens of the underworld to lose the eyes they had once possessed.

If you follow the continuing argument between the advocates of Darwin's natural selection theory and the partisans of creationism or "intelligent design," you will instantly see what I am driving at. The creationists (to give them their proper name and to deny them their annoying annexation of the word intelligent) invariably speak of the eye in hushed tones. How, they demand to know, can such a sophisticated organ have gone through clumsy evolutionary stages in order to reach its current magnificence and versatility? The problem was best phrased by Darwin himself, in his essay "Organs of Extreme Perfection and Complication":
"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree."

His defenders, such as Michael Shermer in his excellent book Why Darwin Matters, draw upon post-Darwinian scientific advances. They do not rely on what might be loosely called "blind chance":
"Evolution also posits that modern organisms should show a variety of structures from simple to complex, reflecting an evolutionary history rather than an instantaneous creation. The human eye, for example, is the result of a long and complex pathway that goes back hundreds of millions of years. Initially a simple eyespot with a handful of light-sensitive cells that provided information to the organism about an important source of the light …"

Hold it right there, says Ann Coulter in her ridiculous book Godless: The Church of Liberalism. "The interesting question is not: How did a primitive eye become a complex eye? The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"

The salamanders of Planet Earth appear to this layman to furnish a possibly devastating answer to that question. Humans are almost programmed to think in terms of progress and of gradual yet upward curves, even when confronted with evidence that the past includes as many great dyings out of species as it does examples of the burgeoning of them. Thus even Shermer subconsciously talks of a "pathway" that implicitly stretches ahead. But what of the creatures who turned around and headed back in the opposite direction, from complex to primitive in point of eyesight, and ended up losing even the eyes they did have?

Whoever benefits from this inquiry, it cannot possibly be Coulter or her patrons at the creationist Discovery Institute. The most they can do is to intone that "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." Whereas the likelihood that the post-ocular blindness of underground salamanders is another aspect of evolution by natural selection seems, when you think about it at all, so overwhelmingly probable as to constitute a near certainty. I wrote to professor Richard Dawkins to ask if I had stumbled on the outlines of a point, and he replied as follows:
"Vestigial eyes, for example, are clear evidence that these cave salamanders must have had ancestors who were different from them?-had eyes, in this case. That is evolution. Why on earth would God create a salamander with vestiges of eyes? If he wanted to create blind salamanders, why not just create blind salamanders? Why give them dummy eyes that don't work and that look as though they were inherited from sighted ancestors? Maybe your point is a little different from this, in which case I don't think I have seen it written down before."

I recommend for further reading the chapter on eyes and the many different ways in which they are formed that is contained in Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable; also "The Blind Cave Fish's Tale" in his Chaucerian collection The Ancestor's Tale. I am not myself able to add anything about the formation of light cells, eyespots, and lenses, but I do think that there is a dialectical usefulness to considering the conventional arguments in reverse, as it were. For example, to the old theistic question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" we can now counterpose the findings of professor Lawrence Krauss and others, about the foreseeable heat death of the universe, the Hubble "red shift" that shows the universe's rate of explosive expansion actually increasing, and the not-so-far-off collision of our own galaxy with Andromeda, already loomingly visible in the night sky. So, the question can and must be rephrased: "Why will our brief 'something' so soon be replaced with nothing?" It's only once we shake our own innate belief in linear progression and consider the many recessions we have undergone and will undergo that we can grasp the gross stupidity of those who repose their faith in divine providence and godly design.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 09:57 am
"Intellectual integrity and scientific achievement are worth defending. Both have been far more rewarding to humanity and to civilization than have religious dogma and witchcraft."
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 10:16 am
Mr Hitchens is well known here as a Trotskyite with a 3rd class degree.

He can write that sort of thing at the drop of a fee.

He's a supporter of the Iraq war.

One might expect Mr Dawkins to know better than to use "who" in relation to salamanders for which "which" is required.

Can either of these two carpetbaggers answer the question I asked-

Quote:
Would you explain to us what politicians, forget one off judges, are supposed to do if they truly believe atheism is unworkable and the short cut to catastrophe?


Mr Hitchens has speculated in public on whether Jews have an atheist gene. And he thinks women have no sense of humour.

He's into dramatic gestures it seems to me. Keeps his gig audiences thrilled I suppose. Had a strong willed mum too.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 10:19 am
I am glad that you enjoyed today's essay, spendi. Smile
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 10:47 am
ros wrote-

Quote:
"Intellectual integrity and scientific achievement are worth defending.


Not without qualification they are not. And you know it ros. So why do you make ridiculous statements of that nature.

I think you ought to leave witchcraft out of it. You don't know what it means because your reading has been restricted to what suits your case. And that is not intellectual integrity.

And the religious dogmas of Christianity have provided you with every comfort and convenience you enjoy.

You do not understand the issues I'm afraid. You just like spouting ignorant absurdities from within a closed box.

Tell us what a witch is then, leaving out a Goebell's type cartoon of a hag in a pointy hat astride a broomstick.

Would you explain to us what politicians, forget one off judges, are supposed to do if they truly believe atheism is unworkable and the short cut to catastrophe?

You must pull rank on your design team if they are too scared to put you in the picture vis-a-vis your intellectual capacities.

Give us a clue instead of parroting that **** you did.

You haven't a clue on either question.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 12:14 pm
ANN COULTER, one of the "great scientific minds"
Quote:
Hold it right there, says Ann Coulter in her ridiculous book Godless: The Church of Liberalism. "The interesting question is not: How did a primitive eye become a complex eye? The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"


Of course her answer has to do with godesses and boogeypersons.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 01:05 pm
Oswald Spengler wrote-

Quote:
Is it permissable to fix upon one, any one, group of social, religious, physiological or ethical facts as the "cause" of another? "Certainly," the rationalistic school of history, and still more the up-to-date sociology, would reply. That, they would say, is what is meant by our comprehending history and deepening our knowledge of it. But in reality, with "civilized" man there is always the implicit postulate of an underlying rational purpose--without which indeed his world would be meaningless. And there is something rather comic in the most unscientific freedom that he allows himself in his choice of his fundamental causes. One man selects this, another that, group as prima causa--an inexhaustible source of polemics-- and all fill their works with pretended elucidations of the "course of history" on natural-science lines.


(Some stuff about Schiller's immortal banalities and the progress from Rationalism to Materialism.)

Quote:
The cult of the useful was set up on high. To it Darwin, in the name of his century, sacrificed Goethe's Nature-theory. The organic logic of the facts of life was supplanted by a mechanics in physiological garb. Heredity, adaptation, natural selection, are utility-causes of purely mechanical connotation. The historical dispensations were superseded by a naturalist movement "in space." (But are there historical or spiritual "processes," or life- "processes" of any sort whatever? Have historical "movements" such as, for example, the Renaissance or the Age of Enlightenment anything whatever to do with the scientific notion of movement?) The word "process" eliminated Destiny and unveiled the secret of becoming, and lo! there was no longer a tragic but only an exact mathematical structure of world-happening. And thereupon the "exact" historian enunciated the proposition that in the history-picture we had before us a sequence of "states" of mechanical type which were amenable to rational analysis like a physical experiment or a chemical reaction, and that therefore causes, means, methods and objects were capable of being grouped together as a comprehensible system on a visible surface. It all becomes astonishingly simple. And one is bound to admit that given a sufficiently shallow observer, the hypothesis (so far as concerns his personality and its world-picture) comes off.

Hunger and Love thus become mechanical causes of mechanical processes in the "life of peoples." Social problems and sexual problems ( both belonging to a "physics" or "chemistry" of public--all too public-- existence) become the obvious themes of utilitarian history and therefore of the corresponding tragedy. For the social drama necessarily accompanies the materialist treatment of history, and that which in Goethe's "Wahlverwandtschaften" was destiny in the highest sense has become in Ibsen's "Lady from the Sea" nothing but a sexual problem. Ibsen and all the reason-poets of our great cities build--build from their very first causes to their very last effect--but they do not sing.


Food is "delicious" when it's posh and the wife becomes a trophy in a display cabinet as Veblen so thouroughly explains. Boats, cars, planes become feathers in the cap.

Hitchens and Dawkins sing like cracked bells and washed out horns blowin' into my face with scorn.

You lot lap it up to try to learn to do it.

Shaw took it all much further into eugenics and culling.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 01:17 pm
And while I was typing that lot out fm was, once again, failing to answer what is a very easy question. As are the rest of you with your intellectual integrity all shot to pieces which can be done with a pea-shooter so flimsy is it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 01:21 pm
Quote:
And one is bound to admit that given a sufficiently shallow observer, the hypothesis (so far as concerns his personality and its world-picture) comes off.


The phallic circularity.

What's the cause of lingerie shops fm?
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 02:28 pm
fm quoted-

Quote:
How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"


To which he avoided responding with the flippacy-

Quote:
Of course her answer has to do with godesses and boogeypersons.


We'll have to take your word for that fm.

What's your explanation of how it all came to exist? Firework displays in the infinite. We are piss-balling about all day long on a bit of shrapnel. And I mean a bit. A very,very, little bit. An infinite number of firework displays. In the dark spaces behind the moon where new worlds are being created.

You'll blow the kid's minds.

Much better to tell them a nice fable with moral guidance and literary facility stitched in. They don't believe the fable of course. You just pretend that they do. It's a convenience you allow yourself. Anything that lasts I mean.

It could even be, and I'm speculating wildly now, that a kid growing out of fables using his own observation might be a way a scientific mind first shows itself and it might not happen if there's no fable. On such a hypothesis you anti-IDers are wrecking American science.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 04:58 pm
Does anybody want to trust the education of the productions of their loins to geezers who won't, because they daren't, answer the questions that are on the table.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:01 pm
You aren't asking any question spendi, you're just taking your ego for a jog.

T
K
O
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:08 pm
I know what causes lingerie shops fm.

And I know what intellectual integrity with the jitters looks like as well.

And the other question about politicians is easy too. Whatever it takes to inspire the confidence of the voters is the only answer.

What was it now? 93-3 in the House, unanimous in the Senate, and the Gov signing up voluntarily set against Judge Jones after listening to three weeks of a white flag flapping and a nationwide tour of gigs beckoning.

I'd bet JJ hasn't paid for more than ten dinners since.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:12 pm
Diest TKO wrote-

Quote:
You aren't asking any question spendi, you're just taking your ego for a jog.


We have ceased deploying that type of argument on account of the fact that it is for kiddiwinkies in the nurseries.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:13 pm
asked and answered, move on if youve nothibg sensible to add.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:18 pm
Nothing has been answered. You are blurting again fm.

The education of 50 million kids isn't down to blurts is it?

You've been shredded and your post is the scientific proof.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:30 pm
Lingerie shops are caused by a need to make mutton look like lamb. A demand, and JK reckons that demand causes supply, so there you are.

Straightforward. I told you it was a simple question. I only ask simple questions. For obvious reasons.

What time is it fm?

What it says on your watch I suppose.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:33 pm
Quote:
What time is it fm?



EXTRA SMOOTH CALLS
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