97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jul, 2008 05:53 pm
History now fm. Apart from being wakened thrice and enjoying going back to sleep three more times.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 02:13 pm
In the famous sermon concerning conscience delivered by Cpl. Trim in Tristram Shandy there is this-

Quote:
Could no such thing as favour and affection enter this sacred COURT:--Did WIT disdain to take a bribe in it:--or was asham'd to shew its face as an advocate for an unwarrantable enjoyment.----Or, lastly, were we assured, that INTEREST stood always unconcern'd whilst the cause was hearing,--and that passion never got into the judgment-seat, and pronounc'd sentence in the stead of reason, which is supposed always to preside and determine upon the case. --Was this truly so, as the objection must suppose; --no doubt then, the religious and moral state of man would be exactly what he himself esteem'd it; --and the guilt or innocence of every man's life could be known, in general, by no better measure, than the degrees of his own approbation and censure.



If ever there was a case of passion presiding over reason and hoisting itself into the judgment seat it was the anti-IDer's gleeful jumping all over the one man band decision of the travelling gavel at Dover and the searching out of rubbishy articles from wherever they can be found to support the anti-ID case when set against the almost unanimous verdict of two assemblies of elected people and an elected Govenor in Louisiana who were insulted and villified for their pains by the very same anti-IDers who fawned at Judge Jones. What a distortion of perception.

It is ironic indeed that these anti-IDers build their case on reason and then their passions, probably derived from the attempt to justify "unwarrantable enjoyments", lead them into such disproportionate and undemocratic solipsisms.

As far as I can tell passion entirely rules the anti-ID proponents on this thread and in those editorial suites which are quoted in it. It can be seen in the language that they use, the manner in which they make their case, which is hopeless from a proper anti-ID perspective, and in the fact that they will not answer the simplest questions when they are directly put to them. They use reason itself in the service of "unwarrantable enjoyments." Dispassionate they are not. Their INTEREST is on the line.

They have arrived at defining REASON as they themselves esteem it which is to say in the service of their passion--their anti-reason.

One simple question was answered by declaring that it wasn't a question and that I was taking my ego for a jog. Even if I had been taking my ego out for a jog, which I think I am antitled to do anyway, that is not an answer to anything.

It was passion alone. Not a shred of reason in sight.

And another unanswered question in another place not far from here, reflexed the enquiry as to when I stopped wanking in public.

It is passion and not reason that rules the anti-ID mindset and there is the proof if anybody is sufficiently dim to not yet have divined it. And it is a passion of pride as well as of lust.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 03:20 pm
And Mr Obama signs off his charismatic speech in Germany with a "God bless you."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 25 Jul, 2008 05:21 pm
Why is this battlefield strewn with corpses?

I can explaion what lingerie shops are for.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 25 Jul, 2008 05:24 pm
spendius wrote:
Why is this battlefield strewn with corpses?

I can explaion what lingerie shops are for.



spendi, You are multi-talented; explain lingerie shops and pubs. Not bad for two.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 25 Jul, 2008 05:31 pm
You are much too innocent c.i. for anything like that.

And I do not mind in the least.

What I object to is you having a say in the education of 50 million kids who are going to have to live in a world you can't possibly envisage and without you having troubled yourself with even a cursory study of the matter.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 25 Jul, 2008 06:26 pm
spendius wrote:
You are much too innocent c.i. for anything like that.

And I do not mind in the least.

What I object to is you having a say in the education of 50 million kids who are going to have to live in a world you can't possibly envisage and without you having troubled yourself with even a cursory study of the matter.


My school days have been long gone, but my education continues through books and travel. As for the educational system, it was damaged by Bush's No Child Left Behind and all the PhDs who have transformed our educational system into "teach the kids to pass a standardized test" assembly line.

They miss the most important concept of education of children, and that is that children learn at different stages of their life, have different interests, mature at different ages, and come from different home environments.

Poor kids suffer by the millions, because they're forced fed information to pass a test, and they wonder why so many fail.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 03:08 pm
ci.--

The education of children is a business and a political matter.

The business is run on behalf of adults and by them. The interests of the children are irrelevant.

We don't know what those interests are anyway.

There does seem to be a thriving free market though in the desire to learn survival skills. But politicians couldn't introduce that into schools because it would suggest they had no confidence in holding things together.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 04:39 pm
Quote:
Evolving Toward a Compromise
(By Amy Binder and John H. Evans, Washington Post, July 26, 2008)

A proposal before the Texas Board of Education calls for including the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution in the state's science curriculum. This initiative is understood by supporters and opponents to be a strategic effort to get around First Amendment restrictions on teaching religion in science class. The proposal is a new round in an old debate, and, if it fails, creationists will innovate once again, just as they have since the 1920s.

If they succeed, there could be national implications: Because of Texas's sizable school population, the state curriculum can influence national standards. Book publishers don't want to produce multiple versions of the same text for different states or regions, so ideas that work their way into Texas's curriculum often end up shaping content in classrooms elsewhere.

Opponents of teaching intelligent design -- civil libertarians, scientists and educators alike -- have fought these challenges with a scorched-earth line of attack. No compromise, ever. Bloggers opposed to the idea of intelligent design ridicule its proponents as fundamentalist hicks, while formal assessments tend to condemn them in a slightly more civil tone. Those who study social movements, as we do, know that loss does not always deter; in fact, crushing one's opponents, especially again and again, can create feelings of persecution and solidarity among them and deepen their commitment to their cause.

From a tactical perspective, this may not be the best way to protect the science curriculum or the separation of church and state. From a more humanistic viewpoint, stigmatizing those who believe in intelligent design does not get us any closer to a respectful discourse. We presume that the Texas challenge will be found to violate the Constitution and that scientists will never accept the watering down of evolutionary concepts in the classroom. But by taking seriously a concern of critics of evolution, educators could offer an olive branch that might result in less debate overall and in better-informed students.

Intelligent design and previous creationist debates appear to center on where humans came from. A less public yet similarly powerful motive of activists is their belief that the materialist underpinnings of evolutionary theory harm children's values. For example, the defender of fundamentalism in the 1925 Scopes "monkey trial," Williams Jennings Bryan, was motivated by his conclusion that Darwinism taught "the law of the jungle" and had led to World War I by subverting the morality of the Germans. More recently, "the Wedge," an infamous leaked strategy document of intelligent design proponents, suggests that advocates are not as concerned about the truth of evolution as they are about the underlying values they think it teaches. The paper concludes that teaching evolution leads to moral relativism. As one contemporary supporter of intelligent design put it, "Darwinian evolution tells us not only where we came from but also what behavior is natural and normative for humans. . . . Teach kids they are animals, and they'll act like animals."

We propose a compromise that would neither violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment nor limit the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Most defenders of evolution do not consider valid the critics' fears that evolution teaches values. Even so, teachers could take these concerns seriously by clarifying what evolutionary theory does not imply about values. To assuage the type of concern articulated by William Jennings Bryan, teachers could tell students that even though evolutionary science talks about the survival of the fittest organism, it is not a model for how humans should treat each other. They could explain that students should not make an "ought" about human behavior from an "is" of nature and that competition in contemporary society will not lead to increased survival rates. Moreover, they could explicitly note that just because mutations in organisms are random, it does not follow that human morality is random.

We are not asking teachers to discuss what morality should look like but, rather, to explain that morality does not logically flow from evolutionary theory. This will not allay all the fears of those who could be attracted to intelligent design. But it's understandable that parents could be concerned that evolution entices their children to think unconsciously of themselves as creatures with animalistic impulses, to lose faith in their religious traditions and to think that if the nature of animals is determined by random mutations, then morality must be random as well. Teaching consciously what evolution does not need to imply for morality recognizes these concerns and does not cross church-state separation boundaries. Furthermore, challenging students to think about the connections between science and society would promote high-quality science instruction.

We recognize that, ultimately, we are asking teachers to shoulder yet another burden. To us, though, this seems lighter than the burden that would ensue if evolution's opponents became even more disgruntled with their public schools and tried still more novel challenges, straining the courts and generating conflict in communities across our country.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 04:49 pm
"He enlargeth a nation and straiteneth it again," says Job, in the Bobble as Settin' Aah-aah calls it.

Perhaps ci. the enlargement has run its course.

It's amazing how knowing that Noah couldn't get all the species of animals on the ark can blind you to truths of such profundity.

You could end up completely phucked on account of your intelligence, wisdom and critical scientific thinking.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 04:56 pm
Quote:
Evolving Toward a Compromise
(By Amy Binder and John H. Evans, Washington Post, July 26, 2008)

A proposal before the Texas Board of Education calls for including the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution in the state's science curriculum. This initiative is understood by supporters and opponents to be a strategic effort to get around First Amendment restrictions on teaching religion in science class. The proposal is a new round in an old debate, and, if it fails, creationists will innovate once again, just as they have since the 1920s.

If they succeed, there could be national implications: Because of Texas's sizable school population, the state curriculum can influence national standards. Book publishers don't want to produce multiple versions of the same text for different states or regions, so ideas that work their way into Texas's curriculum often end up shaping content in classrooms elsewhere.

Opponents of teaching intelligent design -- civil libertarians, scientists and educators alike -- have fought these challenges with a scorched-earth line of attack. No compromise, ever. Bloggers opposed to the idea of intelligent design ridicule its proponents as fundamentalist hicks, while formal assessments tend to condemn them in a slightly more civil tone. Those who study social movements, as we do, know that loss does not always deter; in fact, crushing one's opponents, especially again and again, can create feelings of persecution and solidarity among them and deepen their commitment to their cause.

From a tactical perspective, this may not be the best way to protect the science curriculum or the separation of church and state. From a more humanistic viewpoint, stigmatizing those who believe in intelligent design does not get us any closer to a respectful discourse. We presume that the Texas challenge will be found to violate the Constitution and that scientists will never accept the watering down of evolutionary concepts in the classroom. But by taking seriously a concern of critics of evolution, educators could offer an olive branch that might result in less debate overall and in better-informed students.

Intelligent design and previous creationist debates appear to center on where humans came from. A less public yet similarly powerful motive of activists is their belief that the materialist underpinnings of evolutionary theory harm children's values. For example, the defender of fundamentalism in the 1925 Scopes "monkey trial," Williams Jennings Bryan, was motivated by his conclusion that Darwinism taught "the law of the jungle" and had led to World War I by subverting the morality of the Germans. More recently, "the Wedge," an infamous leaked strategy document of intelligent design proponents, suggests that advocates are not as concerned about the truth of evolution as they are about the underlying values they think it teaches. The paper concludes that teaching evolution leads to moral relativism. As one contemporary supporter of intelligent design put it, "Darwinian evolution tells us not only where we came from but also what behavior is natural and normative for humans. . . . Teach kids they are animals, and they'll act like animals."

We propose a compromise that would neither violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment nor limit the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Most defenders of evolution do not consider valid the critics' fears that evolution teaches values. Even so, teachers could take these concerns seriously by clarifying what evolutionary theory does not imply about values. To assuage the type of concern articulated by William Jennings Bryan, teachers could tell students that even though evolutionary science talks about the survival of the fittest organism, it is not a model for how humans should treat each other. They could explain that students should not make an "ought" about human behavior from an "is" of nature and that competition in contemporary society will not lead to increased survival rates. Moreover, they could explicitly note that just because mutations in organisms are random, it does not follow that human morality is random.

We are not asking teachers to discuss what morality should look like but, rather, to explain that morality does not logically flow from evolutionary theory. This will not allay all the fears of those who could be attracted to intelligent design. But it's understandable that parents could be concerned that evolution entices their children to think unconsciously of themselves as creatures with animalistic impulses, to lose faith in their religious traditions and to think that if the nature of animals is determined by random mutations, then morality must be random as well. Teaching consciously what evolution does not need to imply for morality recognizes these concerns and does not cross church-state separation boundaries. Furthermore, challenging students to think about the connections between science and society would promote high-quality science instruction.

We recognize that, ultimately, we are asking teachers to shoulder yet another burden. To us, though, this seems lighter than the burden that would ensue if evolution's opponents became even more disgruntled with their public schools and tried still more novel challenges, straining the courts and generating conflict in communities across our country.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 05:16 pm
Quote:
spend wrote: You could end up completely phcked on account of your intelligence, wisdom and critical scientific thinking.


It's not as all in-grossing as you perceive it; it's just a simple matter of the old adage called "common sense."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 05:25 pm
That is, by a long distance, the best quote you have yet provided for us wande.

It's a really cute way of conceding as one might expect of so august an institution as the Washington Post.

The anti-IDers sulky silence on here is the naff way.

When they can't explain lingerie shops they are goosed.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 08:34 pm
This post of WANDELJW's was so important, perhaps we should see it again and dwell on its significance to USers. Its damn frightening as a compromise and yet, should it fail, provides some more confusion in moderating a stare decisis issue should the USSC decide to continue on its route of being a bunch of activist douche bags,
Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Evolving Toward a Compromise
(By Amy Binder and John H. Evans, Washington Post, July 26, 2008)

A proposal before the Texas Board of Education calls for including the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution in the state's science curriculum. This initiative is understood by supporters and opponents to be a strategic effort to get around First Amendment restrictions on teaching religion in science class. The proposal is a new round in an old debate, and, if it fails, creationists will innovate once again, just as they have since the 1920s.

If they succeed, there could be national implications: Because of Texas's sizable school population, the state curriculum can influence national standards. Book publishers don't want to produce multiple versions of the same text for different states or regions, so ideas that work their way into Texas's curriculum often end up shaping content in classrooms elsewhere.

Opponents of teaching intelligent design -- civil libertarians, scientists and educators alike -- have fought these challenges with a scorched-earth line of attack. No compromise, ever. Bloggers opposed to the idea of intelligent design ridicule its proponents as fundamentalist hicks, while formal assessments tend to condemn them in a slightly more civil tone. Those who study social movements, as we do, know that loss does not always deter; in fact, crushing one's opponents, especially again and again, can create feelings of persecution and solidarity among them and deepen their commitment to their cause.

From a tactical perspective, this may not be the best way to protect the science curriculum or the separation of church and state. From a more humanistic viewpoint, stigmatizing those who believe in intelligent design does not get us any closer to a respectful discourse. We presume that the Texas challenge will be found to violate the Constitution and that scientists will never accept the watering down of evolutionary concepts in the classroom. But by taking seriously a concern of critics of evolution, educators could offer an olive branch that might result in less debate overall and in better-informed students.

Intelligent design and previous creationist debates appear to center on where humans came from. A less public yet similarly powerful motive of activists is their belief that the materialist underpinnings of evolutionary theory harm children's values. For example, the defender of fundamentalism in the 1925 Scopes "monkey trial," Williams Jennings Bryan, was motivated by his conclusion that Darwinism taught "the law of the jungle" and had led to World War I by subverting the morality of the Germans. More recently, "the Wedge," an infamous leaked strategy document of intelligent design proponents, suggests that advocates are not as concerned about the truth of evolution as they are about the underlying values they think it teaches. The paper concludes that teaching evolution leads to moral relativism. As one contemporary supporter of intelligent design put it, "Darwinian evolution tells us not only where we came from but also what behavior is natural and normative for humans. . . . Teach kids they are animals, and they'll act like animals."

We propose a compromise that would neither violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment nor limit the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Most defenders of evolution do not consider valid the critics' fears that evolution teaches values. Even so, teachers could take these concerns seriously by clarifying what evolutionary theory does not imply about values. To assuage the type of concern articulated by William Jennings Bryan, teachers could tell students that even though evolutionary science talks about the survival of the fittest organism, it is not a model for how humans should treat each other. They could explain that students should not make an "ought" about human behavior from an "is" of nature and that competition in contemporary society will not lead to increased survival rates. Moreover, they could explicitly note that just because mutations in organisms are random, it does not follow that human morality is random.

We are not asking teachers to discuss what morality should look like but, rather, to explain that morality does not logically flow from evolutionary theory. This will not allay all the fears of those who could be attracted to intelligent design. But it's understandable that parents could be concerned that evolution entices their children to think unconsciously of themselves as creatures with animalistic impulses, to lose faith in their religious traditions and to think that if the nature of animals is determined by random mutations, then morality must be random as well. Teaching consciously what evolution does not need to imply for morality recognizes these concerns and does not cross church-state separation boundaries. Furthermore, challenging students to think about the connections between science and society would promote high-quality science instruction.

We recognize that, ultimately, we are asking teachers to shoulder yet another burden. To us, though, this seems lighter than the burden that would ensue if evolution's opponents became even more disgruntled with their public schools and tried still more novel challenges, straining the courts and generating conflict in communities across our country.



MAybe the EVangelicals should propose their own nation with all the rights and privileges afforded its citizens, as long as they pass the litmus test of being good Bible Believers.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 08:45 pm
The Texas Board of Education has sobered me a number of times. I don't know where the legal boundary line will get drawn, considering the ferocity of the Creationist demand, and the makeup of the USSC. One would hope sanity prevails, but I have little faith in my fellow human beings in that regard.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 08:53 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
The Texas Board of Education has sobered me a number of times. I don't know where the legal boundary line will get drawn, considering the ferocity of the Creationist demand, and the makeup of the USSC. One would hope sanity prevails, but I have little faith in my fellow human beings in that regard.


amen to that!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 27 Jul, 2008 09:13 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolving Toward a Compromise
(By Amy Binder and John H. Evans, Washington Post, July 26, 2008)

To assuage the type of concern articulated by William Jennings Bryan, teachers could tell students that even though evolutionary science talks about the survival of the fittest organism, it is not a model for how humans should treat each other.

We are not asking teachers to discuss what morality should look like but, rather, to explain that morality does not logically flow from evolutionary theory. This will not allay all the fears of those who could be attracted to intelligent design....

It's fine to explicitly state that biological evolution is not a basis for human morality, but in my opinion, it won't change a thing. The creationists aren't interested in clarifying the details of evolution, they are interested in implementing their wedge strategy. Does anyone really think that by adding some words about the difference between morality and evolution that the creationists will stop pushing "academic freedom" proposals into legislature.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 05:00 am
ros wrote-

Quote:
It's fine to explicitly state that biological evolution is not a basis for human morality, but in my opinion, it won't change a thing.


What do you propose ros as a basis for morality. (There is only "human" morality btw).

The ultimate meaning of religious ethics is a morality. Morality is the conscious and planned causality of conduct. It involves ritual and practice.

Quoting Spengler-

Quote:
There is only causal moral--that is, ethical technique on the background of a convinced metaphysic.


Morality is a negation of life forces. A refraining and renunciation of the forces of the blood. It is a system involving doctrines and spiritual exercises.

Discipline.

Again with Spengler-

Quote:
No action must be causal and impulsive--that is left to the blood--everything must be considered according to motives and results and "carried out" according to orders.


(Results= Social consequences which are, of course ignored by anti-IDers for their convenience and to pander to their timidity.)

The alternative is to unleash the forces of the blood and sensual impulse and may be called "libertinage". Anti-IDers failure to accept such an obvious truth is why they are half-baked.

Schools without religious ethics can inculcate no morality and it is impossible to imagine a school under the direction of an authority containing classes at odds with other classes.

What anti-IDers are arguing for is an educational system under the total control of atheists.

Regulation is fatuous because what is there to control the blood and sensual impulse of the regulators except the prevention of knowledge of it being exposed using terror and then freedom of the press is lost and free speech itself.

Anti-IDers seem blissfully unaware that they are mounting an attack on free speech and the truth.

PS- I notice, again, that those fm disapproves of are "douche bags" and those edgar disapproves of are insane to such an extent that he has no faith in their becoming sane as he himself is.

In both cases (the USSC and the Texas Board of Education) the members are either elected or appointed by people who are elected.

Thus fm and edgar are rejecting the democratic process and can logically be labelled totalitarians as I have said all along the thread.

They might as well preen before a mirror as write bullshit of that infantile nature.

(What is a "douche-bag" fm?)

(What is sanity edgar?)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 06:21 am
ros wrote-

Quote:
Does anyone really think that by adding some words about the difference between morality and evolution that the creationists will stop pushing "academic freedom" proposals into legislature.


The joke ros is that really you don't want them to because the alternative would then loom large.

You're like the little dog barking at the chained up big dog.

Can you not get it? You're being protected by those you disparage.

As things stand, and will remain standing, you are in a win/win position. You are being protected and also allowed to give vent to your pent up rage. You're having a tantrum in a play-pen.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 06:55 am
ros
Quote:
The creationists aren't interested in clarifying the details of evolution, they are interested in implementing their wedge strategy.

We seem to forget this point if we buy into this "compromise".
0 Replies
 
 

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