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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 03:11 am
The carcass and the beating are both self-reassuring assertions. The carcass wiped the floor with the opposition in La. and the beating seems to consist of hiding away from any questions and then popping out with short barks as if nobody else exists and especially those who raise questions above the level of pop sci-fi.

You should take up boxing ros. You would be the champ. You can't miss if you declare the opposition knocked-out and everybody believes you.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 07:37 am
Hey--you anti-IDers

Have you seen what you're lined up with next door on the DNA designed by a mind thread?
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:07 am
The conclusion of Bertrand Russell's essay on John Dewey, the American educationalist is-

Quote:
In all this I feel a grave danger, the danger of what might be called cosmic impiety. The concept of "truth" as something dependent upon facts largely outside human control has been one of the ways in which philosophy hitherto (before Dewey and James--two New Englanders, he means) has inculcated the necessary element of humility. When this check upon pride is removed, a further step is taken on the road to a certain kind of madness--the intoxication of power which invaded philosophy with Fichte, and to which modern men, whether philosophers or not, are prone. I am persuaded that this intoxication is the greatest danger of our time, and that any philosophy which, however unintentionally, contributes to it is increasing the danger of vast social disaster.


So, as an atheist, Dr Russell has come round to a view which the Church has held to for generations--that Pride is public enemy No 1. The deadliest of the deadly sins and now advertising is in charge of controlling it.

When there is not sight nor sound to be seen of humility it is reasonable to expect that the facts beyond human control are no longer in the service of that virtue and must, for want of alternatives, become the tools of pride running amok as can be seen next door on the DNA designed by a mind thread. Cosmic impiety abounds both limitlessly and effortlessly.

And I have the impression that the participants over there hold positions of some responsibility and really one only need put some leverage on the numbers and the vast social disaster looms into view.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:23 pm
Quote:
Attack of the Super-Intelligent Purple Space Squid Creators
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:30 pm
Ovid did panspermia. In style. It could be that it is the simplest of all choppers of the Gordian Knot. Hence its popularity.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:34 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Attack of the Super-Intelligent Purple Space Squid Creators
(Ronald Bailey, Reason Magazine, July 15, 2008)

Ultimately, the intelligent design hypothesis just leaves everything up to the ineffable whims of the moral equivalent of super-intelligent purple space squids or whoever else is the alleged "source of design."

I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster will get along well with these Purple Space Calamari.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 05:20 pm
WARNING to fans of this thread.

Do not read Settin' Aah-aah's latest post on the DNA designed by a mind thread without an incontinence pad, two for preference, securely in place.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 05:31 pm
spendius wrote:
WARNING to fans of this thread.

Do not read Settin' Aah-aah's latest post on the DNA designed by a mind thread without an incontinence pad, two for preference, securely in place.


That would be one on your head, and the other?
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 05:54 pm
While you're on c.i. perhaps you could arbitrate an argument in the pub.

What exactly is the male Darwinian evolutionist position on-

1- Sex with a woman.

2- Sex with a conveniently adjusted female.

3- Sex with an animal.

4- Sex with yourself.

5- Sex in a dream.

6- Sex in groups of 3 or more. (Mixed or otherwise)

7- Sex with a varnished oak patio table when the umbrella has been removed.

I don't have the teremity to ask a female Darwinian evolutionist's position on the matter. History is too confusing on that score.

But one really ought to say that the DEist has to have a position in order to invade the schoolrooms where the wannabe adults are being trained.

Are they up for "well- what happens happens" like in evolution.

Okay-- don't answer. Show us all how very important fossils are and puff up Dawkins and tell us about how you want to run the schools by only taliking about how you want to run the schools without actually running them in real life.

Not that it's important in evolutionary terms but just to give us all a good laugh.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 06:25 pm
spendi, There is no such thing. The area you're interested in is human psychology.
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aperson
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2008 11:01 pm
Nice calm guy (unlike Richard Dawkins - his book on atheism really brought out the Christian-hating part of me) explaining some of the disproofs of Creationism.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jul, 2008 09:41 am
Thank you c.i. for your useless answer to my questions concerning one aspect of the "controversial issues" the senator from Texas referred to a while ago.

If education is not concerned with human psychology it is hard to imagine what it might be for.

Your presence in the debate is inexplicable after such a cop-out answer you have provided us with. Did you sense I had nailed you as a fundamentalist Christian?

I know what a Christian teacher would have answered.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jul, 2008 12:23 pm
Going back to that mush wande posted yesterday from Mr Sarcastic-

Quote:
Do intelligent design proponents have a theory to explain that?


Yes--Jesus did it. 2 billion years is a flash of lightning in the infinity of time. But, of course, with Mr Sarcastic's cosmic impiety (see Russell quote above) it would be remiss of us to expect him to place his own life-span in relation to the self same universe he is rabbiting about.

Quote:
Were the space squid creators just lazy?


Need I read on>>No I need not. It's a bit like lecturing the congregation at the Evensong gig about the evils of adultery when your shagging half-a-dozen of the wives in it. Mr Sarcastic is probably the type who thinks everybody is lazy except him. He hasn't even read the Gospels and here he is saying they are a load of bullshit.

Sheesh wande- who taught you to read?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jul, 2008 03:10 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury-

The important things you owe it to yourselves to bear in mind are these-

1-- Anti-IDers talk about "critical thinking" in a manner which casually implies that they are critical thinkers..which they are not.

2--Anti-IDers talk about "reality" in a manner which casually implies that they are realists..which they are not.

3-Anti-IDers talk about "facts" in a manner which casually implies that they are the the only people who know any..which they are not.

As Mark Twain said--"Don't part with your illusions; when they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live."

What they are engaged in is a classic trick. Two actually.

In the one a group of human beings, a minority by some margin, proceeds in a type of discourse which arises not from knowledge but from a failure to know what isn't known. Things unknown lend themselves readily to weavers of the winds as can easily be seen on this forum recently where they really have winged it a little more than is respectable for a science thread.

There is a neat little conspiracy which politely declines to recognise that anyone admitted to the circle doesn't know what he is talking about and/or that they don't know that they don't know what they are talking about. It is assumed that they all know that they all know what they are talking about..which they don't.

The second trick is to so surround this unknowingness with verbal esotericisms, gleaned from the pantheon of the populisers of pop-science, as with any other form of snobbery, so that when they are proved wrong they can be seen to have had respectable reasons. Scientific reasons they think. They work the well known principle that wisdom is an abstraction associated with the man who asserts it and the manner of his assertion. And all the anti-IDer's assertions are of the crude type normally found in playgrounds and in magazines appealing to ladies of a certain age and condition.

Some economic commentators have said that the motivations of such ladies are a useful guide because they are less elaborately disguised than those of men. Such men, and they are all men, read women's magazines like the KGB reads the New York Times.

It follows, as night follows day, that their opponents, when proved right, as they are, will be found to have been dealing with hocus-pocus, intuition and even mysticism, none of which are rational, objective or scientific and all of which terms the anti-IDers define themselves to "save their theory". That is a species of discourse of some timidity, to put it mildly, which is eschewed in intellectual discussion of the type Messrs Galbraith, Veblen and many more Americans have helped me to come to terms with.

Many more.

Judge Jones was seen to be returning from the mountain top and down south whole legislatures got onto the other end of the see-saw. All elected.

Anti-IDers did a few dozen laps of honour at the "Have Gavel-Will Travel" decision and waved the pre-vote media arsewipes in our faces and a sort of stunned silence when La. comes in. Govenor Jindal is just declared an idiot as if he hadn't given the matter much thought in relation to his bid to climb the pyramid of power which we all know is what any politician is solely interested in.

And I'll answer for anti-ID to stand in for anti-IDers who couldn't bring themselves to answer the question I asked c.i. and by extension all anti-IDers.

The correct anti-ID answer depends on the position taken on the number of people in the world, or in the US, or Palestine etc.

If the position is that there are too many then answers 2-7 are correct if provision can be made in the budget for them or if they don't cause any unrest. Answer No.1 is outlawed or under regulation.

If the position is that there are not enough people then answer No.1 is approved and the others castigated. There can be no moral or ethical considerations in an anti-ID view of the matter. It would have to be rational, objective and scientific.

By approved I mean like driving on the wrong side of the road in some countries I've read about is approved.

Early pub on Sundays out of respect for our religion. (So we get up fresher on Monday to work our ass off for the bastards without whom I don't suppose there would be a pub. Not like this one I mean. It looks like a beautifully cut diamond from a distance in the dark. )

The discussion on whether there are too many people or not enough is a matter for another time.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jul, 2008 03:58 pm
you just keep piling up unrelated facts that youve recently learned from our tutorials. The only thing I can make from your previous post is that you are still really pissed off at Judge Jones. You have to learn to del with it and move on. You dont catch me being all whiney about the HEller decision do you?
Tough it out old girl, youre day may yet come when we take Jindal to court over his recent signature on a bill.

You really dont think that the Louisiana issue is over do you? If you do, then you have really no idea about the US manner of juris prudence.
We grind the wheels exceedingly fine over here, and until all options and "theories" are sorted out and adjudicated, there will be more state bills and local initiatives trying to get their places in the sun. Thats why the wind that you blow out your (I assume) mouth, is of little substance and is only worth a snicker or two.

If you hang around , you will be taken to school to see how the entire siituation proceeds.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jul, 2008 04:36 pm
Now that is one class post fm. I cannot deny it.

I am proud to have inspired it.








Wait a minute. Don't muses inspire?



Does fm want to phuck me?


Forget it fm. I have had a delicate operation once on my recticular squeezing mechanism and the surgeon advised me that anything of that nature wouldn't be in my best interests which are what I always think of first. He said that ridiculousness was subjective and no use in guiding one's actions.

I have been spared wrestling with my conscience, like Mr Mailer, over the matter.

I have an answer to it but is late here and I must drop in on Trivia where the real action is. Later I hope.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jul, 2008 05:49 pm
Quote:
New legal threat to teaching evolution in the US
(Amanda Gefter, New Scientist Magazine, July 2008)

BARBARA FORREST knew the odds were stacked against her. "They had 50 or 60 people in the room," she says. Her opponents included lobbyists, church leaders and a crowd of home-schooled children. "They were wearing stickers, clapping, cheering and standing in the aisles." Those on Forrest's side numbered less than a dozen, including two professors from Louisiana State University, representatives from the Louisiana Association of Educators and campaigners for the continued separation of church and state.

That was on 21 May, when Forrest testified in the Louisiana state legislature on the dangers hidden in the state's proposed Science Education Act. She had spent weeks trying to muster opposition to the bill on the grounds that it would allow teachers and school boards across the state to present non-scientific alternatives to evolution, including ideas related to intelligent design (ID) - the proposition that life is too complicated to have arisen without the help of a supernatural agent.

The act is designed to slip ID in "through the back door", says Forrest, who is a professor of philosophy at Southeastern Louisiana University and an expert in the history of creationism. She adds that the bill's language, which names evolution along with global warming, the origins of life and human cloning as worthy of "open and objective discussion", is an attempt to misrepresent evolution as scientifically controversial.

Forrest's testimony notwithstanding, the bill was passed by the state's legislature - by a majority of 94 to 3 in the House and by unanimous vote in the Senate. On 28 June, Louisiana's Republican governor, Piyush "Bobby" Jindal, signed the bill into law. The development has national implications, not least because Jindal is rumoured to be on Senator John McCain's shortlist as a potential running mate in his bid for the presidency.

Born in 1971 to parents recently arrived from India, Jindal is a convert to Roman Catholicism and a Rhodes scholar - hardly the profile of a typical Bible-belt politician. Yet in a recent national television appearance he voiced approval for the teaching of ID alongside evolution. He also enjoys a close relationship with the Louisiana Family Forum (LFF), a lobbying group for the religious right whose mission statement includes "presenting biblical principles" in "centers of influence". It was the LFF which set the bill in motion earlier this year.

"We believe that to teach young people critical thinking skills you have to give them both sides of an issue," says Gene Mills, executive director of the LFF. When asked whether the new law fits with the organisation's religious agenda, Mills told New Scientist: "Certainly it's an extension of it."

The new legislation is the latest manoeuvre in a long-running war to challenge the validity of Darwinian evolution as an accepted scientific fact in American classrooms. Forrest played a pivotal role in the previous battle. It came to a head at a trial in 2005 when US district judge John E. Jones ruled against the Dover area school board in Pennsylvania, whose members had voted that students in high-school biology classes should be encouraged to explore alternatives to evolution and directed to textbooks on ID.

The Dover trial, during which Forrest presented evidence that ID was old-fashioned creationism by another name (New Scientist, 29 October 2005, p 6), revolved around the question of whether ID was science or religion. Jones determined it was the latter, and ruled in favour of the parents who challenged the Dover board on the basis of the provision for separation of church and state in the US constitution.

The strategy being employed in Louisiana by proponents of ID - including the Seattle-based Discovery Institute - is more subtle and potentially more difficult to challenge. Instead of trying to prove that ID is science, they have sought to bestow on teachers the right to introduce non-scientific alternatives to evolution under the banner of "academic freedom".

"Academic freedom is a great thing," says Josh Rosenau of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California. "But if you look at the American Association of University Professors' definition of academic freedom, it refers to the ability to do research and publish." This, he points out, is different to the job high-school teachers are supposed to do. "In high school, you're teaching mainstream science so students can go on to college or medical school, where you need that freedom to explore cutting-edge ideas. To apply 'academic freedom' to high school is a misuse of the term."

"It's very slick," says Forrest. "The religious right has co-opted the terminology of the progressive left... They know that phrase appeals to people."

The new usage began to permeate public consciousness earlier this year with the release of the documentary film Expelled: No intelligence allowed. Starring actor, game-show host and former Nixon speech-writer Ben Stein, the film argues that academic freedom is under attack in the US from atheist "Darwinists". The film's promoters teamed up with the Discovery Institute to set up the Academic Freedom Petition. Their website provides a "model academic freedom statute on evolution" to serve as a template for sympathetic legislators.

So far, representatives from six states have taken up the idea. In Florida, Missouri, South Carolina and Alabama, bills were introduced but failed. An academic freedom bill now in committee in Michigan is expected to stall there.

Louisiana is another story. A hub of creationist activism since the early 1980s, it was Louisiana that enacted the Balanced Treatment Act, which required that creationism be taught alongside evolution in schools. In a landmark 1987 case known as Edwards vs Aguillard, the US Supreme Court ruled the law unconstitutional, effectively closing the door on teaching "creation science" in public schools. ID was invented soon afterwards as a way of proffering creationist concepts without specific reference to God.

In 2006, the year following the Dover ruling, the Ouachita parish school board in northern Louisiana quietly initiated a new tactic, unanimously approving a science curriculum policy that stated: "Teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and weaknesses of existing scientific theories pertinent to the course being taught." The idea that evolution has weaknesses, and is therefore not a solid scientific theory, is a recurring theme in ID-related literature. Not long afterwards, the assistant superintendent of the Ouachita parish school system, Frank Hoffman, was elected to the state House of Representatives and joined the House education committee. "I knew then that something was going to happen," says Forrest.

When Jindal was elected governor last year, the stage was set. The LFF approached Ben Nevers, a state senator, who agreed to introduce the Louisiana Academic Freedom Act on their behalf. "They believe that scientific data related to creationism should be discussed when dealing with Darwin's theory," Nevers told the Hammond Daily Star in April. The bill was later amended and renamed the Louisiana Science Education Act. Its final version includes a statement that the law should not be taken as promoting religion.

That way, those who wish to challenge Darwinian evolution have "plausible deniability" that this is intended to teach something unconstitutional, says Eric Rothschild of the Philadelphia-based law firm Pepper Hamilton, which represented the parents at the Dover trial. "They are better camouflaged now."

Supporters of the new law clearly hope that teachers and administrators who wish to raise alternatives to evolution in science classes will feel protected if they do so. The law expressly permits the use of "supplemental" classroom materials in addition to state-approved textbooks. The LFF is now promoting the use of online "add-ons" that put a creationist spin on the contents of various science texts in use across the state, and the Discovery Institute has recently produced Explore Evolution, a glossy text that offers the standard ID critiques of evolution (see "The evolution of creationist literature"). Unlike its predecessor Of Pandas and People, which fared badly during the Dover trial, it does not use the term "intelligent design".

Because the law allows individual boards and teachers to make additions to the science curriculum without clearance from a state authority, the responsibility will lie with parents to mount a legal challenge to anything that appears to be an infringement of the separation of church and state. "In Dover, there were parents and teachers willing to step forward and say, this is not OK," says Rosenau. "But here we're seeing that people are either fine with it or they don't want to say anything because they don't want to be ostracised in their community."

Even if a trial ensues, a victory by the plaintiffs will only mean that some specific supplementary material is ruled unconstitutional - not the law itself. Separate lawsuits will be needed to address each piece of suspicious supplementary material. "This encourages a lot of local brush fires that you have to deal with individually and that makes it very difficult," says Forrest. "This is done intentionally, to get this down to the local level. It's going to be very difficult to even know what's going on."

Ultimately, if a number of suits are successfully tried, a group like the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) could take the law itself to court, citing various cases in which it was used to bring religious material into the classroom. Representatives from the ACLU and from Americans United for Separation of Church and State have already told Louisiana state officials that lawsuits will follow if the law is used for religious ends.

In the meantime, Forrest is working to inform teachers about the supplementary materials being made available. "The pressing need for the coming school year is to get the word out for what teachers need to be on alert for," she says.

As to a future Dover-style trial, this time on Forrest's home turf, "I'll be right there," she says, though it's not a prospect she relishes. "I'd like to think I won't have to do this for the rest of my life. Because believe me, I don't do it for fun. It's a duty."
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jul, 2008 06:14 pm
In the true spirit of critical thinking, its obvious that the "supplementary materials" being presented to students will be based upon old tired and tried arguments taht , to date , have been shown to be as bankrupt and false as Halloween legends. Obviously, then, if a teacher is threatened based upon their real "critique" of these supplemetary materials, the teacher can rely upon the EQUAL PROTECTION afforded by this very law.

Ive been thinking about it these last weeks and have sent some of my Tulane colleagues som information about how this law can potentially cut both ways.

Itll be some fun , (I disagree with Dr Forrest on that one point).
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jul, 2008 11:42 am
fm --

Would you explain to us what politicians, forget one off judges, are supposed to do if they truly believe atheism is unworkable and the short cut to catastrophe.

We can argue whether atheism is unworkable and a short cut to catastrophe later.

We have 94-3 in the House, unanimous in the Senate and signed by the Govenor when he didn't need to.

What's your solution?

You can't keep weaseling out of the fact that you anti-IDers cannot win the hearts and minds of the voters because they perceive you to be a bunch of arseholes who they do not trust one bloody inch with power.

And if they need any proof they only have to read this thread.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jul, 2008 01:59 pm
By the way--

The Mark Twain quote-

Quote:
"Don't part with your illusions; when they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live."


which I posted yesterday was the "Thought for the Day" in the Wall Street Journal on Sept 11 1929.
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