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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 19 May, 2005 09:26 am
wandeljw-wow, I think that statement , if adopted in each state would satisy me and my colleagues. I like the use of "descent with modification" as those are Darwins words exactly. He never used the word evolution in the"Origin..." even in his sixth ed. which had all the benefits of communications with Spencer, Huxley etc.

Brandon, the addition of the origin of life is a separate theory and Darwin is silent upon that. In fact , Darwin talks of the "beauty of Gods Creation..." So, in sensu strictu, I beleieve that Kansas is going as far as Elkhart and they are not opening their "standards " to any sharp criticism, because, even the evolutionary scientists would have to agree, under oath, that EVOLUTION is the descent with modification, and the concept of ORIGINs are still in the investigative stages with multiple hypotheses.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:57 pm
The new draft of science standards for the State of Kansas also has interesting introductory remarks. Below is a portion of the introduction. (The entire draft of Kansas science standards can be viewed on the Kansas State Department of Education website.)
Quote:
Teaching With Tolerance and Respect
Science studies natural phenomena by formulating explanations that can be tested against the natural world. Some scientific concepts and theories (e.g., blood transfusion, human sexuality, nervous system role in consciousness, cosmological and biological evolution, etc.) may differ from the teachings of a student's religious community or their cultural beliefs. Compelling student belief is inconsistent with the goal of education. Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. A teacher is an important role model for demonstrating respect, sensitivity, and civility. Science teachers should not ridicule, belittle or embarrass a student for expressing an alternative view or belief. In doing this, teachers display and demand tolerance and respect for the diverse ideas, skills, and experiences of all students.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:59 pm
Luddites in fancy suits. They're still storming the machines with burning torches, they've just learned to be a little subtle about it.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 03:00 pm
I wonder if teachers would be allowed to say: "Thank you, Susie--I don't agree with you, and now we'll return to our studies."
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 08:57 pm
Dont you think that those Kansas standards are quite advanced and logical? They dont purposely piss off the "creationists" but they do take the underpinnings of evolution as far as can be taken with Darwin as their central figure. Naah, theyll never be adopted.
The religionists will feel betrayed by their shills in the legislature

The science teachers will want to carry it out further to parallel what Brandon asks for.

I am comfortable wit a geologic pace, just as long as we dont put it in R
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 24 May, 2005 08:57 am
The intelligent design lawsuit in Dover, Pennsylvania will go to trial this September in the United States District Court for Middle Pennsylvania. An article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (January 9, 2005) included a good explanation of the issues involved:
Quote:
Intelligent design attempts to use scientific evidence, rather than the Bible, to prove that living organisms are far too complex to have evolved mindlessly over billions of years. Its proponents say neither adaptive Darwinism, known as "natural selection," nor macroevolutionary biology can explain how eyeballs developed or how the first organism was assembled. At the subcellular level, they say, there is an "irreducible complexity" -- condensed to its tiniest elements, life eventually reaches a point at which it can't be reduced, because the removal of any part kills it. For those reasons and others, the world must have an intelligent designer, guiding the process not only at the beginning but along the way, with specific goals in mind.

In the eyes of opponents, however, that common denominator with religious creation means belief in "intelligent design" is no different than belief in any other supernatural designer, and such a theory has no place in a biology course, not only from a legal standpoint, but also as a matter of scientific honesty.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 02:19 pm
In recent years, William A. Dembski has published books promoting intelligent design theory. Dembski asserts that intelligent design can actually be detected by applying scientific methodology. He compares the methodology used by scientists studying animal intelligence.
Quote:
To see this, consider again a rat traversing a maze, but now take a very simple maze in which two right turns conduct the rat out of the maze. How will a psychologist studying the rat determine whether it has learned to exit the maze. Just putting the rat in the maze will not be enough. Because the maze is so simple, the rat could by chance just happen to take two right turns, and thereby exit the maze. The psychologist will therefore be uncertain whether the rat actually learned to exit this maze, or whether the rat just got lucky. But contrast this now with a complicated maze in which a rat must take just the right sequence of left and right turns to exit the maze. Suppose the rat must take one hundred appropriate right and left turns, and that any mistake will prevent the rat from exiting the maze. A psychologist who sees the rat take no erroneous turns and in short order exit the maze will be convinced that the rat has indeed learned how to exit the maze, and that this was not dumb luck. With the simple maze there is a substantial probability that the rat will exit the maze by chance; with the complicated maze this is exceedingly improbable. The role of complexity in detecting design is now clear since improbability is precisely what we mean by complexity.
In general, to recognize intelligent causation we must establish that one from a range of competing possibilities was actualized, determine which possibilities were excluded, and then specify the possibility that was actualized. What's more, the competing possibilities that were excluded must be live possibilities, sufficiently numerous so that specifying the possibility that was actualized cannot be attributed to chance. In terms of probability, this means that the possibility that was specified is highly improbable. In terms of complexity, this means that the possibility that was specified is highly complex. All the elements in the general scheme for recognizing intelligent causation (i.e., Actualization-Exclusion-Specification) find their counterpart in complex specified information-CSI. CSI pinpoints what we need to be looking for when we detect design.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 03:48 pm
wandeljw wrote:
In recent years, William A. Dembski has published books promoting intelligent design theory. Dembski asserts that intelligent design can actually be detected by applying scientific methodology. He compares the methodology used by scientists studying animal intelligence.
Quote:
To see this, consider again a rat traversing a maze...In terms of probability, this means that the possibility that was specified is highly improbable. In terms of complexity, this means that the possibility that was specified is highly complex. All the elements in the general scheme for recognizing intelligent causation (i.e., Actualization-Exclusion-Specification) find their counterpart in complex specified information-CSI. CSI pinpoints what we need to be looking for when we detect design.

He's leaving out one little factor - natural selection mimics design by rewarding success and penalizing failure.

1. You have an immense population.
2. You have an immense experiment duration.
3. You have a mechanism, mutation, for introducing new designs randomly.
4. You have natural selection causing failures to disappear and success stories to spread through the gene pool.

Evolution produces increasingly competitive life forms, often by adding features, i.e. increasing complexity. His quotation ignores the basic idea of evolution. Essentially he is saying that only design can create a complex creature adapted to its environment, which is false, since the above mechanism can do that too.

People who start at their desired conclusion, and then try to work out a scheme to back justify it, are not likely to succeed in science.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 04:32 pm
Did I forget to post this piece here. Sorry. It's relavant, I think.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-196-1619264,00.html

Quote:
May 21, 2005

Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant
As the Religious Right tries to ban the teaching of evolution in Kansas, Richard Dawkins speaks up for scientific logic

Science feeds on mystery.Mystics exult in mystery and want it to stay mysterious. Scientists exult in mystery for a very different reason: it gives them something to do.

Admissions of ignorance and mystification are vital to good science. It is therefore galling, to say the least, when enemies of science turn those constructive admissions around and abuse them for political advantage. Worse, it threatens the enterprise of science itself. This is exactly the effect that creationism or "intelligent design theory" (ID) is having, especially because its propagandists are slick, superficially plausible and, above all, well financed. ID, by the way, is not a new form of creationism. It simply is creationism disguised, for political reasons, under a new name.

It isn't even safe for a scientist to express temporary doubt as a rhetorical device before going on to dispel it. "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." You will find this sentence of Charles Darwin quoted again and again by creationists. They never quote what follows. Darwin immediately went on to confound his initial incredulity. Others have built on his foundation, and the eye is today a showpiece of the gradual, cumulative evolution of an almost perfect illusion of design. The relevant chapter of my Climbing Mount Improbable is called "The fortyfold Path to Enlightenment" in honour of the fact that, far from being difficult to evolve, the eye has evolved at least 40 times independently around the animal kingdom.

The distinguished Harvard geneticist Richard Lewontin is widely quoted as saying that organisms "appear to have been carefully and artfully designed". Again, this was a rhetorical preliminary to explaining how the powerful illusion of design actually comes about by natural selection. The isolated quotation strips out the implied emphasis on "appear to", .

The deceitful misquoting of scientists to suit an anti-scientific agenda ranks among the many unchristian habits of fundamentalist authorsNotice the biased logic: if theory A fails in some particular, theory B must be right! Notice, too, how the creationist ploy undermines the scientist's rejoicing in uncertainty. Today's scientist in America dare not say: "Hm, interesting point. I wonder how the weasel frog's ancestors did evolve their elbow joint. I'll have to go to the university library and take a look." No, the moment a scientist said something like that the default conclusion would become a headline in a creationist pamphlet: "Weasel frog could only have been designed by God."

I once introduced a chapter on the so-called Cambrian Explosion with the words: "It is as though the fossils were planted there without any evolutionary history." Again, this was a rhetorical overture, intended to whet the reader's appetite for the explanation. Inevitably, my remark was gleefully quoted out of context. Creationists adore "gaps" in the fossil record.

Many evolutionary transitions are elegantly documented by more or less continuous series of changing intermediate fossils. Some are not, and these are the famous "gaps". Michael Shermer has wittily pointed out that if a new fossil discovery neatly bisects a "gap", the creationist will declare that there are now two gaps! Note yet again the use of a default. If there are no fossils to document a postulated evolutionary transition, the assumption is that there was no evolutionary transition: God must have intervened.

The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift to Kansas.

Richard Dawkins, FRS, is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, at Oxford University. His latest book is The Ancestor's Tale
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 05:08 pm
Good ole Richard. I always delight in the times that he gets his shorts in a twist with the best of the IDers and Creationists. He had Duane Gish for lunch once at an open debate. He is one person who, unlike most of the workers in the field , is able to quickly cobble together a meaningful argument and present it without lapsing into minutae.
I actually feel that hes even a darn better extemporaneous speaker than he is a writer.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 05:28 pm
well farmerman, riddle me this-- there must be intelligent design for the earth, could it really get this f*ucked-up without? What we do know for sure (it says so in the good book) is that god created man in his own image which leaves us with the conculsion that (1) god is generally stupid and (2) god is, more often than not, ugly. It follows then, does it not?, that the deplorable conditions currently seen on our planet are a direct conspiracy between stupid/ugly men/women and stupid/ugly god.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 06:38 pm
It follows. It's a scientific fact.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 09:32 pm
Well Dys,As usual you present a cogent( though irreverent) argument for a Pantheon of totally wacked out and capricious gods. Maybe all the pre-monotheists had something there after all.









NOT. If I go with your well reasoned, though evidence free argument, Id have no fun at all.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 06:26 am
A Pantheon? wow, I havn't been to Greece in years, I'd forgotten all about the Pantheon.
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raprap
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:06 am
Quote:
Dylexics of the world Untie!


I like that argument, There has to be a designer, it couldn't be this f**ked up by accident. QED

I wonder where they left the redlines, because we might oughta be prepared for the tea dance.

Rap
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:38 am
Brandon made a good point. Dembski's proposed methodology would result in findings that can be explained by either intelligent design or natural selection. Natural selection provides a better explanation.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:46 am
dyslexia wrote:
could it really get this f*ucked-up

What does the asterisk stand for? There doesn't seem to be any missing letters? Smile
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Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:50 am
The asterisk stands for: the filter won't stop this use of the word . . .
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 11:58 am
who said this?

Quote:
Dylexics of the world Untie!


Because this catagory would include me, dys and George Bush. Not a good mix.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 12:14 pm
Lola,
The quote reminds me of a riddle my son told me. (He has attention deficit disorder.) He asked me: "How many kids with attention deficit does it take to change a light bulb?" I told him I didn't know. He replied: "Hey, let's go ride our bikes!"
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