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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2008 03:13 pm
I hope they produce a genetic clad-o-gram of the platypus as it fits within the other classes of mammals and the remainder of the phyla. (Like, what part of the genome codes for bird and reptile etc). I wonder how the platyputian genome compares with that of the other monotremes.
Maybe spendi will give us an answer.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2008 03:25 pm
Report on Platypus Characteristics from National Science Foundation

http://www.usnews.com/dbimages/master/4807/FE_PR_080509nsf1platypus2.jpg

Quote:
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2008 03:34 pm
wande-

Have we more bio-chemical links with bunny rabbits or mantis things or snakes? That's what we want to know?

That drivel from the WP (Wiping paper) flags up a being who lacks a science gene.

Goethe would never have caught and killed and skinned one of those creatures just to enhance his credentials at the Academy.

And they are bio-chemical links of the utmost complexity, possibly even dependent upon astrological happenings in the heavens. Just calling them DNA does not in any way mean that the person concerned has the slightest notion about any one of them and there are a very large number to choose from.

Quite sufficient to keep scientists beavering away until the end of our civilisation and being an ever increasing burden on the hard pressed taxpayers into who's hands your nation is handing its destiny in November. Charging us in order to supply us with the luxury of knowing that the animal's complete genetic code, or genome, turns out to have 2.2 billion molecular "letters" of DNA, or about two-thirds as many as the human genome, and contains 18,500 genes, about the same as humans is hardly going to send us out dancing with glee into the streets I'm inclined to think.

Not me anyhow. To each his own. I'm a broad-minded man.

What ideas have you for the intermediate stages before evolution evolved the sperm/egg. From splitting say. Or pollination. And when it had evolved what advantages enabled it to prosper to the point of having pubs and cool frothy beer served up by buxom wenches glowing like daffodils in this warm weather.

Kids can count.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 08:44 am
MAINE UPDATE

Quote:
School Administrative District 59 debates teaching of evolution
(Kennebec Journal, May 11, 2008)

The state Department of Education disagrees with an Athens School Board director who wants School Administrative District 59 to drop evolution from its high school science curricula.

Director Matthew Linkletter claims evolution is an unprovable theory and shouldn't be taught as fact. He's urged the SAD 59 Board of Directors to consider his view during its May 19 meeting in Madison, with a goal of removing evolution from science classrooms.

But David Connerty-Marin of the Department of Education says evolution must be taught because, in the state's view, it's a proven science.

"For our students to be prepared for college work and life in the 21st century, it's necessary," said Connerty-Marin.

Connerty-Marin said the Maine Learning Results program mandates the study of evolution in public science classes.

"Evolution is not just a belief, or based on faith, it's based on scientific evaluation," he said. "The worldwide science community supports it."

Linkletter believes that neither evolution nor creationism belong in a high school science curriculum, because they cannot be proven.

"You can't show, observe or prove (evolution)," he said.

School Administrative District 59 includes the towns of Madison, Athens, Brighton Plantation and Starks.

Chosen at random, two parents of Madison Area Memorial High School students expressed some support for Linkletter's position.

"I think that's a very valid point, to tell you the truth, because evolution is only a theory, not a hard fact," said Nancy Martin, an educational technician at Athens Elementary School.

Martin, who has a son at the high school, said that she believes in creationism, as outlined in the Old Testament Book of Genesis. She said SAD 59 should pull evolution from the science curriculum unless creationism is afforded equal footing.

Laney Kirk of Madison, treasurer of the sports boosters who has a daughter at Madison High, agreed with Martin -- to a point.

"Really and truly, they're both ideas," Kirk said. "We can teach both. But that's where we run into a problem, when you say they're mutually exclusive. You're never going to get everyone to agree about it, so why not teach them both?"

Kirk said she attends most SAD 59 meetings, but missed the one last week when Linkletter broached the topic. The board voted to table the issue and revisit it on May 19. Kirk does not believe that the board should remove evolution from the curriculum.

"There are people who believe that the Holocaust is a theory," Kirk said. "It's like banning a book."

Town Manager Norman Dean, who taught science in Madison from 1962 through 1996, had stronger words for the proposal.

"That's absolutely stupid," said Dean, who once taught Linkletter. "I thought we already had the monkey trial."

There is plenty of evidence, Dean said, that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is correct.

"Adaption over time is proven time and again," he said. "I believe evolution is adaptation to the environment."

Roy Blevins is pastor of Linkletter's church, the Church of the Open Bible in Athens. Blevins spoke in favor of SAD 59 Chairman Norman Luce's suggestion, that a philosophy class might provide a better forum for the study of evolution.

"That's a sane approach," Blevins said. "The evolution concept is a theory, and not provable. If the science department at Madison High is simply teaching theory, then you ought to leave it in the science department."

Blevins agreed with Linkletter that neither is creationism provable, and thus does not belong in the curriculum.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 01:25 pm
Well, Blevins obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, as is spendius.

If we know genome of the Platypus, we will be able to figure out where the platypus sits in the evolutionary Tree of Life and will be able to see how related it is to what species. Furthermore, it can be very important to know the genes of a different species as it can provide us with new technologies.

40ºC washing powders, for example, was made possible by the study of extremophile bacteria.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 03:18 pm
'Scusez moi whilst I titter.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 05:38 pm
I cannot believe my state of MAine.
I am really disappointed at their failure to take Mr Linkletters cojones and stuff them in his mouth.

I love the church"s name
"The Chrurch of the Open Bible"----There needs to be a trailer added
"Open Bibles and close minds"
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 05:49 pm
Open Bibles have nothing to do with reading them carefully.

You confuse the two fm and it flatters your ego.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 06:17 pm
Hi there Lushly. Are we hammered yet?
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 02:46 am
What??? On 3 pints of John Smith's Extra Smooth?

Does that constitute "hammered" where you are fm?

Ye Gods!!

It's just drinking the harvest. It saves on salivation and mastication which are a bit tedious.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 03:59 am
All alcoholics engage in rationalization like that . Three pints is the equivalent of 4 shots of ethyl.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 05:20 am
I think you must have had a problem with booze somewhere along the line to be continually moidered by the subject.

I'm not even over the driving limit. At weekends there are teenage girls in the pub who can drink me under the table.

But if you think I have a problem there's nothing I can do about that. Non-drinkers are just excruciating company. Their small talk is devoid of interest. All self congratulatory and solipsistic.

And when it comes to chatting the totty up they are pathetic.

There's no serious culture that didn't make alcohol and it has been associated with religion thoughout. It is a sacred gift of the Gods.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 05:55 am
MAINE UPDATE

Quote:
Keep science in the science class...and politics out of it
(Kennebec Morning Sentinel Editorial, May 13, 2008)

It looks like Athens School Board Director Matthew Linkletter doesn't get Darwin's theory of evolution.

Otherwise, he'd understand that in the world of science -- much like in the world as seen through Darwin's eyes -- it's the fittest that survive. And in this case, the theory of evolution has been studied, vetted, scrutinized, applied and studied again. It's survived the intense investigation of generations of scientists so well that every major medical and scientific society in the world maintains that evolution explains how life developed on earth. Other theories about the evolution of life on earth have come and gone, disproven and discredited -- but evolution has survived.

Nevertheless, Linkletter wants School Administrative District 59, which includes the towns of Madison, Athens, Brighton Plantation and Starks, to stop teaching evolution. He airily dismisses the validity of the concept which, he says, "you can't show, observe or prove." And if evolution is not verifiable, says Linkletter, "then maybe we should leave it out of the science classes. When you make a statement that's not backed by facts and just represents a world view, then it has no place." He's joined by district Board Chairman Norman Luce, who said evolution might be better taught in a philosophy classroom.

Try that one on all the scientists who understand that, as Boston University history professor Thomas Glick says, "Evolution is the foundational theory of biology and therefore of all life sciences, including medicine." Tell that to the 38 Nobel laureates -- among them physicists, chemists and medical experts -- who jointly signed a letter to the Kansas State Board of Education protesting that board's decision to balance the teaching of evolution with the religiously based, Creationist theory of intelligent design. The move, they wrote, would "politicize scientific inquiry."

And tell that to the chastened Dover, Penn., Board of Education, whose members were on the receiving end of U.S. District Judge John E. Jones' scorn and contempt when he wrote of the "breathtaking inanity" of the arguments board members used to support their attempt to institute the teaching of intelligent design in the district. And by the way, wrote Judge Jones, that move wasn't just inane, it violated the constitutional separation of church and state.

Or better yet, Linkletter and Luce should not lecture anybody anything about the theory of evolution while they're sitting on the school board. In the first place, the state sets the curriculum mandate when it comes to science education and the state says that evolution must be taught. In the second place, neither Linkletter nor Luce know what they're talking about; we hope their ability to manage the school budget is at a higher skill level.

Let's get real here: The reason Linkletter and Luce have broached this subject has nothing to do with education and everything to do with politics. It's a clever twist on this long- running war played out in America's public schools -- don't force creationism to be taught, just diminish the status of evolution. But removing evolution from the science classroom doesn't only leave a vacuum -- that space is then colonized by the religious dogma that's behind the removal.

Ultimately, Linkletter, Luce and their ilk will lose the evolutionary battle of ideas. Time and again, the teaching of creationism and the diminishing of evolution's intellectual stature have failed. But there's a cost: While the Dover school board members were ousted from their seats, that was only after a costly battle for the school district as well as bitter and unfortunate divisions among colleagues, neighbors and friends.

And like a mutant gene that keeps popping up to disable the body politic, it seems America will never be finished with this battle, despite winning all the skirmishes.

We're with Madison town manager Norman Dean, a 34-year veteran science teacher who counts among his former students Matthew Linkletter. Take evolution out of the science classroom? "That's absolutely stupid," said Dean.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 07:20 am
That drivel is absolutely stupid wande. It's second-hand spam. Neurotics don't belong in a science discussion.

If they want to get real as they say, but don't mean, when are they going to answer the heavy questions instead of scratching the surface and hoping nobody notices?

Was the elected representative in Texas talking about nothing when he mentioned "controversial issues"?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 07:48 am
wandeljw wrote:
MAINE UPDATE

Quote:
Keep science in the science class...and politics out of it
(Kennebec Morning Sentinel Editorial, May 13, 2008)

Ultimately, Linkletter, Luce and their ilk will lose the evolutionary battle of ideas. Time and again, the teaching of creationism and the diminishing of evolution's intellectual stature have failed. But there's a cost: While the Dover school board members were ousted from their seats, that was only after a costly battle for the school district as well as bitter and unfortunate divisions among colleagues, neighbors and friends.

The cost of defending science against religious incursion, and public schools against breathtaking inanity is the best possible use of our tax dollars.

Many see it as a waste because the issue should not even exist in a modern world with easy access to real knowledge, but the issue does exist. It exists because for too long now religious delusion has received a free ride. We don't like to create divisions between colleagues, neighbors and friends, but sometimes you have to. US society has confused tolerance with acceptance and allowed ignorance to flourish just to avoid hurting people's feelings. We have to pay this price now, or the anti-science rhetoric will grow, and the price will be much higher later.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 08:54 am
Quote:
US society has confused tolerance with acceptance and allowed ignorance to flourish just to avoid hurting people's feelings. We have to pay this price now, or the anti-science rhetoric will grow, and the price will be much higher later.


well said and (unlike our british friend) , concise and precise.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 10:59 am
What's "US society" fm?

And doesn't "ignorance" mean insincerity in this case.

Isn't it a well known fact that sincerity wounds the ridiculous and monstrous conceits which it is the function of "Romance" to flatter and expand so that goods will be purchased which will reflect back and radiate to neighbours and kin associates the beauty and superiority of those personas which those conceits inevitably spawn?

I would be banned off these boards if I got sincere and you know it.

Not that I object to such things. There was a time when I was as good a goofball as the next man in my market segment. Before I read Veblen, which I daresay you daren't read on account of the science and your inabilty to laugh at yourself. I used to polish my shoes for a wedding. Now I don't go to weddings.

So I understand.

But I mean to say. I ask you. A flipping boat. For flip's sake. Having one is bad enough but going out in it over the waters is flipping ridiculous. Cooking bacon and eggs on a primus stove in a 3ft square galley, in a peaked cap with a badge on the front, rocking back and forth, when you have the latest thing in cookers back at home standing idle. Veblen called that sort of thing "the night shift".

Take a look at The Theory of the Leisure Class to measure your own spirituality. "My wife" indeed. "My dog". "My money". Blimey!! You're only allowed to own your flesh and blood if no war of survival is raging.

Some people have three thousand acres standing idle and Lady Docker had gold toilet seats so a beat up little boat really puts you in a pigeon-hole. Goodstyle. Lower middle-class posh.

Boats are ridiculous from a scientific point of view except for invading, retreating and trading.

It is my polite attempts at sincerity and bare facts that you object to. All of you. And they are very polite. And you will be deceiving yourself if you think I don't know. You won't even discuss the scientific function of lingerie shops and I have left sexual fantasy on the shelf for another time.

I'm used to negative reaction to sincerity. In fact the strength of the negative reaction is directly proportional to the sincerity which provokes it. Just last night I was approached in the pub by a fattish lady with the dugs half out to sponsor her on a 10 mile "jog" for charity. £5 she wanted.

I offered her £10 to run round the pub with no clothes on. She was wounded. Her charitable inclinations drew the line at that. She only wanted to save lives a little bit you see and that little bit was providing her with entertainment. And there's not one creature in the Darwin canon that doesn't run around with no clothes on all the time.

But on a prestigious science thread one might not expect to come across a load of romantic flapdoodlers with their egos a twitter like an ascending skylark talking about "US society" and "my wife" and "my dog" and "my boat" and all the rest of the spiritual ego massage.

On a science thread I cannot help being odious and mischevious anymore than can a ramrod stuck into some whirling machinery.

What was Will Hays all about if sincerity is what's needed?

AIDsers are engaged in full blown propaganda. They are trying to link duty to American science to their own personal interests and romantic peccadilloes and sentimentalities and they think everybody else is too stupid to notice. As if American science waits upon their support. How arrogant can people get? And pretending that America can have 300 million scientists is simply a form of madness.

It's all just a fiction. What's a thermo-nuclear device except the sudden concentration of the output of 50 power stations on one point. That's technology. The science was done years ago on a piece of paper.

It is very tempting to allow oneself to be flattered by the thought that one has fathomed the profundity of thought contained in scientific principles simply by knowing a few labels like DNA and genome and splattering them throughout one's conversation with no explanations. And the profundity contained in Origins is of a very low order as Mr Huxley pointed out at the time. That profundity is a myth relying on few having read it. How many of the people in wande's spammers have actually read Darwin? None, by the look of their fatuous statements.

It is all very simple and obvious except insofar as it is relevant to human sexual activity but that can easily be avoided when a gentleman's agreement is in force so as not to embarrass those who like to pose whilst standing on a pile of such books. And what percentage of the creatures of nature are discussed in Origins? 0.0001 is probably a wild exaggeration.

The temptation to slither around prettily on this subject is especially attractive to those whose strong points do not normally embrace intellectual subtlety and who are easily identified by the crude nature of their usual mode of discourse such as that of ros's last post and your reaction to it.

People like that are very susceptible to believing that their brains are being appealed to, Darwin being ideal as any clodhopper can understand it, whereas it is their interests and sentiments. The simple fact is that every self-improving Tom, Dick and Harriet clasps the simplicities of Darwin to their bosoms with relish, and it is well known that Tom, Dick and Harriet are by definition averagely intelligent and Darwin represents the uttermost limit of their thinking, in order to preen and aggressivly draw invidious comparisons with others.

Now fm, you are supposed to answer that point by point as befits a respectable participant in a scientific debate. Any ignorant blurted assertions are by now well exposed to viewers here for what they are worth and I can assure new viewers that they are worth nothing like the two posts before this one are worth nothing to even a half-way decent critical reader.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 11:23 am
Try your hand at some decent writing spendi. You are a terrible communicator and story teller. Youre a big bore but dont know it. Let me be among the first to send you a clue. What you think is cleverness is actuallyrepetitious pedantry. We get it!, You made your talking points about 2 years ago. Youre spent, nothing new on your scratchboard.
Enroll in a writing course or read some of your old stuff and see whether you dont agree that theres no "there" there.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 12:04 pm
Interesting take by Mr. Einstein.

" described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.

The father of relativity, whose previously known views on religion have been more ambivalent and fuelled much discussion, made the comments in response to a philosopher in 1954.

As a Jew himself, Einstein said he had a great affinity with Jewish people but said they "have no different quality for me than all other people".

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.

"No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this," he wrote in the letter written on January 3, 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, cited by The Guardian newspaper.

The German-language letter is being sold Thursday by Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, said the auction house's managing director Rupert Powell.

In it, the renowned scientist, who declined an invitation to become Israel's second president, rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions," he said.

"And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people."

And he added: "As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Previously the great scientist's comments on religion -- such as "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" -- have been the subject of much debate, used notably to back up arguments in favour of faith.

Powell said the letter being sold this week gave a clear reflection of Einstein's real thoughts on the subject. "He's fairly unequivocal as to what he's saying. There's no beating about the bush," he told AFP. "

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080513122249.m3ds3b6j&show_article=1
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 12:12 pm
Just meaningless assertions fm as I predicted. Obviously you have no answers. You're trolling the whole time.

A report to be published later on this week in the Harvard Business Review says that "nearly two thirds" of women graduates in SET said they had been subjected to sexual harassment at work and that 41% had dropped out of the work by their late thirties. Which means, decoded a little, that male scientist's little dickies were causing more damage to American science in the sense of the expensive training being wasted than anything that might be going on in classrooms.

Also that two thirds objected to the "lab coat culture" in which "researchers laboured over experiments tethered to a microscope for up to 12 hours a day".

The lead author of the study, Sylvia Anne Hewlett, said that the research revealed a world with values stuck in the 1970s.

Quote:
It has been a bit like a time warp. This predatory or condescending culture [towards women] was more common across the workplace 20 to 30 years ago but has somehow survived in an engineering, science and technology context.


She said.

Quote:
We have this amazing talented pool of women who have left the industry. It is highly destructive of our society and economy.


She also said, in the style ros and fm have perfected.

BTW- by my standards fm you AIDsers are barely literate. If you turned corners in your cars like you turn a phrase you wouldn't get past the first T-junction.
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