97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 01:03 pm
Oh you mean as reported in this article?

You fail to state that Dr. Hewlett's (I assume she has a PhD, but then again, maybe she doesn't) research looked at women in a corporate setting. FM, would you say you work in a corporate setting?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 02:30 pm
woiyo quoted Einstein saying-

Quote:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.


Well- human weakness is a given so one might expect it to have products.

Such as thinking you're a big cheese because you have a powerboat when in actual scientific fact you're an eating and shitting machine that any experienced lady can twiddle around her little finger and have knobbly knock-knees, a receding hairline, double chins, athlete's foot, a pot belly, the boat's bowthrusters all gummed up with marine life and any number of other unfortunate dispositions which my social etiquette prevents me from mentioning or even alluding to.

What was needed from the great physicist were some pointers on how to rid ourselves of these weaknesses without reducing our lives to averagely grey aridity and wholesale, deterministic bureaucratic ennui and angst.

And Mr E, wherever he is now, can't be all that proud of the phrase "pretty childish". Only ladies are allowed to use such expressions and even then only in the most desperate circumstances such as when their bluff has been called.

I wouldn't bid for the letter. I'm inclined to think it a forgery.

When one falls in love with the prettiest and most pure choir girl soloing on Ave Maria who gives a damn if somebody thinks that the legend is "pretty childish"?

Better than Courtney Love singing Violet eh?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 03:34 pm
sounds like spendi endorses the "glass ceiling" in sciences as well.

Wolf, yes Im a corporate animal and one of my two equal partners is a woman geoscientist. (I for one have trouble understanding how the "ceiling" culture still works nowadays. Maybe its a problem in bio and chemistry?)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 May, 2008 05:52 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
sounds like spendi endorses the "glass ceiling" in sciences as well.


That is a blatant travesty of my position. Any other subject--okay. But not the sciences.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 06:09 am
Quote:
We have this amazing talented pool of women who have left the industry. It is highly destructive of our society and economy.


She also said, in the style ros and fm have perfected.


What I meant by pointing out the similarity of Ms Hewlett's style to that of some contributors here, and by extension to many other circumstances, is that there is a certain paradoxical nature in demonstrating concern for one's fellow man and advancing one's own prospects and esteem at the same time. And that would apply even if the gain was merely in relation to self esteem.

This effect is particularly touching when the effort involved is minimal.

But there is in it a threat. AIDsers, just like Ms Hewlett, are threatening us with destruction and the end of American science if we are foolish enough to ignore their strictures. AIDsers are threatening us with such things as "the price will be much higher later" if we don't do as they say.

It's "Bogeyman" stuff actually. They have no evidence for their bald assertions and, in fact, Western science's foundations were laid in a highly religious environment.

Nowhere on this thread, or any other, will I be seen making such threats and hitching my star to the welfare of my fellow man. Events in Burma and China, and from many other places and times, remind me continually that I am powrerless in that regard.

By attempting to tease out the logical consequences of a non-religious world, something which is resisted intransigently by AIDsers, I am merely suggesting the choice that is there to be made. I recommend nothing. I would take to the hills though myself were scientific laws to be applied to what have been referred to on here, and not initially by me, as "controversial issues" which is polite code for aspects of rumpy-pumpy.

And what I do has nothing to say regarding our collective future welfare.

This is not a storm in a teacup. And it is about time AIDsers put some flesh on their abstractions and get serious about selling us their position. I could even buy it if they can justify it.

Why won't they try? Are they scared of being shot down in flames which is easy to avoid when there's only an assertion that we are heading for destruction to aim at. Give us some examples of the pure scientific method being applied strictly (what else?) to the organisation of our lives.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 08:45 am
ID "RESEARCH" UPDATE

Quote:
God seekers go public
(Celeste Biever, New Scientist, May 12, 2008)

Over a year ago I visited an organisation called the Biologic Institute, then a shadowy outfit devoted to the search for scientific evidence for Intelligent Design.

When I finally found the lab in Seattle, Washington, the scientists would not talk to me. The next day, when I showed up at Biologic's second office in nearby Redmond, I had the door slammed in my face.

Now however, it seems that Biologic has had a change of heart: it has gone public with a website telling the public all about what it is doing: "The scientists of Biologic Institute are developing and presenting the scientific case for intelligent design in biology. Biologic brings together experts in molecular biology, biophysics and biochemistry, bioinformatics and genomics, astrobiology, and engineering and information science in order to examine the question of design from all angles, the aim being to build a comprehensive and coherent picture."

When I visited, I was told the reason for the secrecy was that Biologic's scientists were simply not ready to discuss their science. But now Biologic has a whole list of papers that they claim contain evidence for ID. Some are dated 2008 and 2007, others are much older.

Furthermore, according to a press release announcing Biologic, which was sent out by the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which has provided the funding to get Biologic up and running, "scientists have been quietly and patiently working in the laboratory to test the predictions of intelligent design".

I imagine that almost all scientists will continue to be highly sceptical of the idea that ID can be proved in the lab. For a start, the list of papers reminds me of at least two papers written by Douglas Axe, the director of the Biologic Institute, in 2000 and 2004. Those papers were peer-reviewed, made no mention of ID but were subsequently quoted as being "evidence for ID" by ID proponents. Other biologists have since said that this is most certainly not what the papers showed.

Secondly, in December 2006 I spoke to two researchers who previously worked with two of Biologic's scientists. One of them, Larry Goldstein, now at the University of California, San Diego, supervised Ann Gauger's post-doc at Harvard University. He expressed surprise when he learned of her association with the anti-evolution movement.

Meanwhile Alan Fersht, whom Axe worked for at the University of Cambridge in the 1990s, was less surprised. But he cited previous attempts by Axe to interpret results from their lab as evidence for ID, which he said were not the scientific interpretation for those results. Both Goldstein and Fersht are among the authors of the papers now listed on Biologic's site. I haven't yet had a chance to talk to either of them but hope to soon.

All of this points to the conclusion that, rather than having new evidence for ID, Biologic is far more likely to simply be interpreting scientific papers, and whatever other science its researchers have been doing since it opened in 2005, not in the way most mainstream scientists would, but to fit with the ID agenda.

After all, ID was dealt a significant blow in December 2005, when parents in the Dover school district of Pennsylvania successfully challenged the right of school board officials to introduce pro-ID material into high school biology classrooms. The judge ruled that it was unconstitutional to teach ID in public schools because it would violate the separation of church and state as laid out in the First Amendment.

Going public with Biologic seems to be an attempt to produce science in the face of this, in order to prove that ID is science, and not religion.

As Ronald Numbers, a historian at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has studied creationism, said when told about Biologic in December 2006: "It will be good for the troops if leaders in the ID movement can claim: 'We're not just talking theory. We have labs, we have real scientists working on this."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 08:55 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Biologic brings together experts in molecular biology, biophysics and biochemistry, bioinformatics and genomics, astrobiology, and engineering and information science in order to examine the question of design from all angles, the aim being to build a comprehensive and coherent picture."


And to spend Disco's money on the fruits of modern industry.

Quote:
I imagine that almost all scientists will continue to be highly sceptical of the idea that ID can be proved in the lab.


Well-they would wouldn't they?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 09:48 am
Quote:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 11:28 am
I get the impression that wande wishes this train to remain in the station for ever and ever.

It may well be, although I think it unlikely, that the readers of Education Week, which I presume is a commercial enterprise exploiting the technology of inserting ink marks into flattened out wood pulp, are visiting new territory but we seem to have arrived at a situation where everytime somebody new visits that same picked over area, wherever they are, wande runs the their stuff past our eyes and, seemingly, intends going on doing so without an end in sight.

Possibly he thinks that this saves him from getting down to studying Darwin's work, and other matters, and that merely gossiping about it is sufficient to establish his scientific credentials.

One has difficulty suppressing a sad smile at the phrase-

Quote:
In another twist


bearing in mind what follows which is the same old twist.

If we were discussing, say, hamburgers, wande would be showing us pictures of them everytime a branch of McDonald's advertised one in the local press in every part of the globe.

He has us running on the spot. It's as if he is scared to contemplate that the "experts" at the Biologic Insitute might be in it for the money, the status, the ease of the bone, the reserved car park and a key to the "expert's bathroom.

The very idea of looking for scientific proof of intelligent design in test-tubes, retorts and centifuges is so preposterous that there's no way these "experts" have anything else on their mind other than personal interest.

And good luck to them.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 11:36 am
And their spouses who will be sure to be using some of the money from Disco to purchase spiritual items of one sort or another which reflect to the world the superiority of their client over those of ladies whose clients are only industrial operatives, soldiers, cowboys and such like dregs of humanity.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 02:10 pm
wandeljw wrote:
ID "RESEARCH" UPDATE

Quote:
God seekers go public
(Celeste Biever, New Scientist, May 12, 2008)

Furthermore, according to a press release announcing Biologic, which was sent out by the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which has provided the funding to get Biologic up and running, "scientists have been quietly and patiently working in the laboratory to test the predictions of intelligent design".

ID makes predictions? Like what?

What distinct empirical evidence does the concept of ID predict that we will find in the natural world which supports the concept of ID?

I suppose it predicts that we will find irreducibly complex systems. But so far none have been found. But even if we did, it wouldn't prove ID, it would only leave us with another unknown. So what can ID predict?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 02:32 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:

(By Sean Cavanagh, Education Week, May 14, 2008)

Rep. Alan D. Hays, a Florida Republican who introduced one of the two "academic freedom" bills debated in that state this year, said he introduced the bill partly because he had heard from science teachers who were afraid to raise questions about evolution because they might draw the scorn of school administrators and others.

"I want our teachers teaching students how to think," Mr. Hays said, "not what to think."

Reaction to the bill was mixed, and strong, he added. "I've had some people who think I'm a hero and others who think I'm a bloomin' idiot," the lawmaker said.

Are ANY of the politicians pushing these bills NOT motivated by their personal religious views?

According to the Florida House of Reps web site, Rep Hayes has been a board member of the Larry McFadden Ministries from 1999 to the present.

And the Larry McFadden's web site wrote:

Welcome to Larry McFadden Ministries, Inc
26 years in full-time evangelism
Over 650 revivals and crusades
Authored 7 books on Christian living and Apologetics
40 overseas mission trips in mostly third-world countries
Conducted numerous "Weekend of Encouragement" seminars for churches
Conducted Creation vs. Evolution seminars for churches teaching book, "Divine Design or Cosmic Chaos?"
Recorded several collections of Christian music


Do we really believe that Rep Hayes is motivated by concerns for free speech? I don't see the ACLU on his list of affiliations.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 May, 2008 03:33 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
ID makes predictions? Like what?


Who are you arguing with ros? Is it not just as much as straw man when another AIDser sits it on the branch for you as if you had set it there yourself.

Quote:
what can ID predict?


How about that if mankind accepts no transcendent authority set above it it self destructs?

Which is, of course, not to say there is a transcendent authority.

And that literal interpretations of the Bible are finished. Or at least in the hospice.

That it's ID or nothing. And those who don't "accept" are merely taking advantage of the fact that there's no danger of all 300 million Americans not accepting so they can spout harmlessly for the sole reason of drawing attention to themselves as advanced modern citizens.

That without acceptance by the broad mass we return to the state of the beast and that those who don't accept have no excuse for not behaving like beasts right now except fear of the law or their fellows which are secular authorities and thus, obviously, disputable.

Hence the non-acceptors live in permanent fear or behave like beasts as many do now.

"The emperor has no clothes", the innocent little lad said.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 08:03 am
I actually believe that spendi has got himself convinced of the accuracy of his twisted logic. Poor dumass, must be the pilsner
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 08:12 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Are ANY of the politicians pushing these bills NOT motivated by their personal religious views?

Any?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 08:59 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
I actually believe that spendi has got himself convinced of the accuracy of his twisted logic. Poor dumass, must be the pilsner


It would help fm if you offered some explanations of why you think that.

I actually believe that you are a gump and a particularly perfect example of the species. It must be all those American hero movies when you let other people act getting your kicks for you during your formative years.

And I have an excuse for making that sort of assertion because it is a response to a really dumass assertion.

You are supposed to take the post on in a debate and not just pull your tongue our and wag it meaninglessly. The fact that you continually work this trick is evidence for my assertion.

What you should do is confine your interest to areas you can understand.

Mankind won't accept moral guidance from what it sees as human sources and especially not those who make no sacrifices to provide it and are living on the fat of the land, like the scribes and pharisees were, and indulging all the vices they can manage.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 01:01 pm
spendius wrote:
It would help fm if you offered some explanations of why you think that.


Because you said yourself that the ID as discussed in these topics isn't the same as the ID you believe in. It thus follows that the ID that is being talked about in the articles that wande posts does not predict the same things that your ID predicts, which, as has been discussed before is not actually ID. Now what acronym did I create for your position again?

Oh yeah, I think it was SR as in socio-religious.

Maybe we can use the acronmy PID instead? Pseudo-Intelligent Design, that is. That would make you a PIDdler.

Quote:
How about that if mankind accepts no transcendent authority set above it it self destructs?


How so? Because you say so?

No, don't even bother answering those questions. You never do. You always spout some irrelevant garbage in the vain hope that we won't notice there aren't any answers in your word salad, or perhaps in the delusion that you think there answers in your world salad.

As I said before, your posts show that you're either delusional or dishonest. FM prefers to think you're delusional. I prefer to think you're dishonest.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 02:14 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
I actually believe that spendi has got himself convinced of the accuracy of his twisted logic. Poor dumass, must be the pilsner


Scientifically, considering the content of the post this was a response to, it consitutes an unprovoked insult topped off with an unjustified presumption (a satisfying fantasised assertion).

Such things are objectively a form of aggression and even casual perusers of this thread will easily see that such behaviour is not uncommon in fm's responses to my posts, as is often the case with the responses of other AIDsers, and that he bends over with abandon and relish at the mere sight of the drivel wande posts so tediously and at that of other AIDsers which we can presume he finds agreeable and which are generally of equivalent tedium.

Obviously, things being as they are in the absence of the teachings of Jesus, aggression has been exhaustively studied by experts some of whom are world famous as a result of their reports.

The consensus seems to be that aggression can be traced back to infancy and conditioning incidents where temper tantrums such as throwing the toys out of the play-pen have resulted in approved responses from the minders.

Aggression is connected by this consensus of scientists, who are household names in educated circles, to "destruction" and to "sadism" which is, technically, the ego extending its influence over the "other" and ordering this "other" to its satisfaction. Geometrical gardening (ordering nature) and political power (ordering people about) are two examples of where "sadism" is turned to useful account. There are many aspects of "sadism" which are dysfunctional and I'm sure viewers will know the main ones so there is no need for me to mention any.

Destructive and sadistic impulses which give rise to insulting behaviour, especially when unprovoked, are consistent with a felt sense of danger and an urge to destroy it. Given the conditioning in infancy and the felt sense of danger this aggression is a perfectly rational biological goal. When the expression of the impulse gives rise to pleasure at the pain of the "other" it is a sub-division of sadism known as algolagnia. It is algolagnia which is "kinky" and not sadism as such.

As Reich said- " We destroy in a danger situation because we want to live and because we do not want to suffer anxiety."

Therefore amply justified if we are really under threat.

So, in this context, the only danger that can possibly exist and cause anxiety and the insult reflex to kick in is to the position being held by fm on these matters and the risk to his self esteem which, according to the Materialist Theory of Mind is a biological object, being undermined by my contributions. Looking sheepish in not on the agendas of AIDsers which shows their ignorance of Shakespeare if nothing else.

And that is what the dialectic actually is. Debaters are supposed to undermine and test their protagonist's position at all times using logic and critical thinking. Not bloody insults.

The deployment of insults is barbaric and shouts out "I don't want to debate I want my tummy tickling and some more syrup on my comforter."

Now, anybody can read through this thread and pass by all insults as if they have been levelled with the ground and had salt sowed into their foundations.

There's an Insult thread on Trivia where everybody is invited, encouraged even, to give free rein to their destructive impulses, verbally.

I'm here to undermine your position fm because somebody has to do it to stop you morphing into Big Brother which you would if your insults had always won out.

One only need study your avvie to see how important preventing such a thing happening is.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 03:16 pm
Very Happy

CAnt argue with a bit of that. Yet, Im not alone in trying to understand where you think that youre going with your constant gainsay of EVERYONE . Does that give your otherwise inadequate existence some meaning? If so, Im happy thyat we can oblige.

Your spendi-centred definition of ID is amusing , even though you travel that road alone. You've fractured your own definition from the mainstream of IDjicy and for that youre an easy target.


Youve said nothing new in about 3 years so Im assuming that youre still working on the details of your "theory" . Good , we need more clarification of IDjicy. Its such an important area of science and politics.

bye byefor now. I assume that you are comfortably soaking in the flagon with the dragon.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 05:18 pm
I gave up on the dragon fm when she spent a week's wages on an antique telephone table.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 07/22/2025 at 04:33:28