97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:31 pm
spendi, 90% does not reject atheism, and all atheists do not reject religion.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 03:26 pm
I presume from that c.i. that you have no response to make to my post.

What about the A2Kers in the waiting for the boat pic?

They are in the pic doing what they are doing and that has a cause too. We don't like to say they are in the pic because they are in the pic. Each has a biography which has, somehow, led them to that point.

Would you say that it was the result of meaningless, random happenings or that it was intelligently designed?

Don't forget that there are sillions of physico/chemical events caught frozen in time in that pic. As with all photographs. The light from the periphery of the picure has further to travel to the lens than that from the centre of the picture so that what we see in the picture does not represent one instant of time but a range of them. If the objects photographed were celestial bodies the photograph would represent a complete illusion. Some objects having ceased to exist long ago. Ghosts.
All of them being a part of the dead "become" like fossils.

There's some science for you to ponder. An illusion can be used for a number of teleological purposes.

We understand the ladies sat at meat though. That is similar to elephants at the water hole only with Christian expertise applied. Being scientific about it I mean. And discreet.

Answering your post-

I understood that 90% of Americans do not accept that there is no "something". Is that not true?

Atheism asserts there is no "something" doesn't it.

And atheists cannot reject religion because it is staring them in the face.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 04:06 pm
As various written documents from the past often come up on this thread I thought it worth mentioning that a BBC2 programme about gardens around the world divulged to us that at the time of the Declaration of Rights, where all men were to be deemed equal, Mr Jefferson had 100 slaves maintaining his residence and personal person and one presumes to his grudging satisfaction.

His garden, which is famous of course, was said to have been designed as a metaphor for a vision of the Great Society. Everything orderly, serving a refined function and in its place. An intellectual conception far in advance of Huxley's crude alpha/beta/gamma grades.

As things have shaped up I suppose he must have meant men such as himself were all equal which is a laudable objective if one then sets out to make all men like himself. That would be classic ID.

Whether you consider it science or religion is immaterial. Science and Religion are ID. Nothing to do with floods and arks and personal service gods under every stone.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 05:37 pm
What is ID beyond some superman who controls all of everything?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 06:37 pm
Indeed c.i.

Does it bother you that you're not in control yourself?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 06:46 pm
But, you miss the point, spendi; superman does not exist. Spell fictional for us.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 06:56 pm
You evade the point and not very subtly either.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 08:58 am
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Our position: It would be a mistake for legislators to dilute evolution decision
(Orlando Sentinel Editorial, February 23, 2008)

...............The Trojan horse at the science classroom door is the call for an "academic freedom" law. Such a law is said to allow teachers to "engage students in a critical analysis" of evolution. What's wrong with that?

Plenty..................


So how come the author was unable to say why critical analysis of evolution was a bad thing?

If there's 'plenty' wrong with it, you'd think at least two or three principle reasons could be given.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 09:09 am
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Our position: It would be a mistake for legislators to dilute evolution decision
(Orlando Sentinel Editorial, February 23, 2008)

...............The Trojan horse at the science classroom door is the call for an "academic freedom" law. Such a law is said to allow teachers to "engage students in a critical analysis" of evolution. What's wrong with that?

Plenty..................


So how come the author was unable to say why critical analysis of evolution was a bad thing?

If there's 'plenty' wrong with it, you'd think at least two or three principle reasons could be given.

He did explain himself. Right after the word "Plenty.... ", where you cut your paragraph off above.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 09:51 am
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Our position: It would be a mistake for legislators to dilute evolution decision
(Orlando Sentinel Editorial, February 23, 2008)

...............The Trojan horse at the science classroom door is the call for an "academic freedom" law. Such a law is said to allow teachers to "engage students in a critical analysis" of evolution. What's wrong with that?

Plenty..................


So how come the author was unable to say why critical analysis of evolution was a bad thing?

If there's 'plenty' wrong with it, you'd think at least two or three principle reasons could be given.

He did explain himself. Right after the word "Plenty.... ", where you cut your paragraph off above.


The author's explanation:
Quote:
Plenty.

The essence of science is to inquire, observe and challenge concepts. Science teachers will encourage their students to ask questions about evolution and they'll have scientifically valid answers for them. The scientific method has led evolution to be widely accepted as fact.

This academic-freedom law is just an attempt to sneak creationism through the schoolhouse's back door. Creationist theology that life on Earth is so complex it must have resulted through God's intelligent design belongs in a comparative religion course, not in a science class.

And to couch this in the noble principle of academic freedom is shameful. Would you defend a math teacher who fervently believes 2+2 = 5 and offers that as an alternative theory?

In teaching evolution, and Charles Darwin's thoughts on natural selection, the new science curriculum challenges students and encourages critical thinking.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 09:54 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Evolution solution: transparent and wacky
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 12:21 pm
Well, I couldnt disagree with Mr Gross more. Using the term"the scientifci theory of evolution" is exactly what it is. Its not merely a "Theory of evolution" since the word "theory" to the many, signifies nothing more than a hunch. To emplace boundaries of the context in which its presented, is perfect. It dispels the notion of "hunch" and , instead, replaces it with "discipline"


POIFECT (as Moti Krauthamer the working moyl said after completing a job in the backsest of a moving Lincoln Continental)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 12:24 pm
I have to agree with farmerman; it'll be more difficult to promote the "the scientific theory of ID." It can't be done.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 12:33 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
"The scientific theory of cells!" Is there any other kind of cell theory worthy of consideration? I know of none.


That Mr Gross knows of none is not an argument.

Neither is it of any interest to Floridians except that those of them who are up to speed might wonder what a scientific ignoramus is doing writing so-called scientific articles in their journal of the record and arrogantly preaching about matters he obviously knows nothing about.

Freud outlined in Civilization and its Discontents a thesis related to repression of instinctual urges causing disease.

Quote:
Assumptions Freud Stuck With:

The premise that there was a mental apparatus within every individual-a mind. This mind was related in some ways to the brain and its physiology but was also in some ways separate from it and thus open to psychological study.

That a large part of the mind is hidden from our direct scrutiny.

That within the mind a form of psychological determinism acts so that it is possible to attribute observable events to some psychological cause.

Finally, Freud remained convinced that abnormal and normal lay on a continuum.


Wilhelm Reich took such a thesis into the biological realm to show that cellular malfunction is related to repression of instinctual urges, which is one of the functions of education in civilised societies. Especially in higher grade mixed classes in warm environments.

His books The Function of the Orgasm and Character Analysis present his theories. I won't go into those matters for obvious reasons.

The common use of sexual and scatological terms in ordinary discourse is a sufficient index of our instinctive rejection of repression and it has been demonstrated sociologically that this use increases in direct proportion as danger is sensed.

So there is a theory of cells related to psychology (psychosomatic--dread word for AIDs-ers) and as psychology is related to culture then there is a cultural theory of cells and their healthy functioning and as there are many cultures such theories are necessarily subjective.

Reich quotes Nicolai Hartmann with approval for having shown that procreation is a function of sexuality and not vice versa which I think a Darwinian would maintain. That obviously given the Adam and Eve story a grounding in modern science.

It is most unlikely that Mr Gross is not suffering under repressions of one sort or another. He would hardly be allowed into the public prints if that was not the case.

I think, before he starts rabbiting about cell theory presumably in the hope that nobody will question him on it, he might try dipping his toe into the water of the subject.

Otherwise he is caught in the same dilemma that he accuses Florida's anti-evolutionists of.

He is using the same trick as AIDs-ers do on here. He thinks that talking about cell theory, evolution theory and atomic theory implies that he understands them and is therefore qualified to propagandize about the education of millions of kids.

wande- what makes you think that these tin-pot journalists have anything to contribute to this debate. Mr Gross hasn't.

It is well known that a late age of consent has an effect on cells. But we accept such things, and I won't mention the others, for cultural reasons and Darwinism has no room for those.

This debate is being conducted by people who know nothing about these matters and are probably better off never knowing.

And you can easily see them turning their heads away from my twee posts like the sound Christians they are underneath that persona (character armour) of empiricism.

And they are twee, like Mr Gross's paper is twee, due to the TOS.

So we are unscientific as a matter of course when it comes to humans and humans are the only serious components of classrooms.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 12:57 pm
wandeljw wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Our position: It would be a mistake for legislators to dilute evolution decision
(Orlando Sentinel Editorial, February 23, 2008)

...............The Trojan horse at the science classroom door is the call for an "academic freedom" law. Such a law is said to allow teachers to "engage students in a critical analysis" of evolution. What's wrong with that?

Plenty..................


So how come the author was unable to say why critical analysis of evolution was a bad thing?

If there's 'plenty' wrong with it, you'd think at least two or three principle reasons could be given.

He did explain himself. Right after the word "Plenty.... ", where you cut your paragraph off above.


The author's explanation:
Quote:
Plenty.

The essence of science is to inquire, observe and challenge concepts. Science teachers will encourage their students to ask questions about evolution and they'll have scientifically valid answers for them. The scientific method has led evolution to be widely accepted as fact.

This academic-freedom law is just an attempt to sneak creationism through the schoolhouse's back door. Creationist theology that life on Earth is so complex it must have resulted through God's intelligent design belongs in a comparative religion course, not in a science class.

And to couch this in the noble principle of academic freedom is shameful. Would you defend a math teacher who fervently believes 2+2 = 5 and offers that as an alternative theory?

In teaching evolution, and Charles Darwin's thoughts on natural selection, the new science curriculum challenges students and encourages critical thinking.


The author's silly example of offering an 'alternate theory' (2+2..........) does not substantiate his claim that allowing critical analysis of the theory would be bad.

He admits that challenging the status quo is an accepted part of the scientific method, but fails miserably to show why it is UNacceptable when the topic is evolution.

Then he cleverly turns it around and boasts how the curriculum will challenge the students.

Nice, but why can't they return the favor?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 01:14 pm
This is a paragraph about George Bernard Shaw's vegetarianism from Mr Holroyd's superb biography.

Quote:
The sense of being a living grave for murdered animals filled him with repugnance: "No one should live off dead things." Part of this horror arose from the kinship he felt for animals. This fellow-feeling was confirmed by the systematic argument of science with which Darwin and other naturalists had established man's connection with animals. After which the practice of meat-eating became a lingering habit of superstition which he defined as 'restricted cannibalism' or, in his most striking phrase, "cannibalism with its heroic dish omitted".


But The Bible gives mankind "dominion over the animals" so meat-eaters are off that hook if they stick to Biblical teaching.

As it is they are all over the place.

Surely the traditional taboo on cannibalism is ultimately based on biological factors, which became famous with Mad Cow Disease, and as the modern DNA evidence only confirms our biological similarity to animals Mr Shaw is proved correct.

I would bet the meat trade around Tallahassee would baulk at having biology classes dealing with that subject.

Why do you think aristocracies prefer meat killed in flight? I hope you don't think that the prices paid for grouse on August 12 in London, which includes the cost of fast motorcycle deliveries of the first birds shot, is anything to do with status symbols. They have to spit lead pellets out for goodness sakes. Roadkill is decent meat.

It's all to do with cell chemistry.

"It should be noted that not all game (as defined by the Game Act 1831) have the same start to their open seasons - most begin on September 1, with October 1 for Woodcock and Pheasant."

Explain that you scientists.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 01:32 pm
RL
Quote:
The author's silly example of offering an 'alternate theory' (2+2..........) does not substantiate his claim that allowing critical analysis of the theory would be bad


Youre confusing "your version of critical analysis" with "Falsifiability" falsifiability of 2+2=5 is easily accomplished by , thus leaving the real answer the correct one. No such alternative exists for Creation or IDjicy. Both are unfalsifiable because they have no supportive science that holds them up.

Natural selextion is falsifiable in its component sciences where we make dumass assumptions "IF" natselection werent in effect. So far 2+2 still=4 by proof.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 01:48 pm
I saw this passage about Henry George, the author of Progress and Poverty, speaking in London in 1882 on Land Nationalization.

Quote:
George, who spoke with an appealing American intonation, holding the emphasis back to the last syllable of each word, was a deliberate orator. He was simple, he was sentimental; and, like the best avant-garde Americans, he was fifty years behind the times in most of Europe. But he was not a shy man, had no scruples about appealing to his friend The Creator, or calling on the eternal verities, Liberty, Justice and Truth. He gave to politics the powerful orchestration of religion.


Its out of the Holroyd book mentioned above. GBS bought and read Mr George's book. (Sixpence).

The next paragraph begins-

Quote:
For the first time it flashed on Shaw that all this controversy between Science and Religion, Darwin and the Bible, was barren ground occupied only by the middle class. " The importance of the economic basis dawned on me."


And that is the Marxist, socialist position.

So you are half-baked socialists as well or even upside-down ones.

Property owning, meat-eating, faithful spouses with their daughters under lock and key way past their maturity are Darwinists are they????

That's a turn up for the book.

The argument is for the political castrato. Mere chatter. Attention seeking.

No wonder practical consequences are ignored.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:00 pm
In my opinion, to disallow critical analysis of natural selection goes to the indoctrination of young minds problem. It is fine for the teacher to show how natural selection is a scientifically sound principle and the best we have to explain origins of species now.

It is not fine for the teacher to disallow questioning of that principle or acknowledgment of the unanswered questions within it or to presume that we know all that we will ever need to know about it.

Good science is never closed minded but always leaves the door open for new understandings and new discoveries.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:33 pm
Yes, good science always leaves open the door for new understandings and new discoveries, but you're trying to introduce ID as the alternative. ID is nothing more than religion in sheeps clothes.
0 Replies
 
 

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