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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 12:31 pm
And quite right too.

Losing to Australia was the first sign of the decline in the sperm count and that is significant.

What's the difference, in principle, between arranging a party and arranging a hairstyle? Aren't they both expressions of ego and self-importance?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 12:42 pm
spendius wrote:


What's the difference, in principle, between arranging a party and arranging a hairstyle? Aren't they both expressions of ego and self-importance?


I would guess it is no different from arranging the empty pint glasses.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 12:50 pm
We never do that. We empty them though.

It's top-notch nutrient. The nectar of the Gods.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 04:00 pm
Darwin owed a coupla large that he took out on the Pates and also the spread. He was into fat Tony for at least 20G.SO what could they do?
It was only business, nothing personal
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 04:33 pm
Evelyn Waugh did a bit of hallucinating in a ship's cabin and he was only on a short trip in a cruise liner.

So seven years on The Beagle must have put a lot of funny ideas into Darwin's head.

One might have thought that the evolutionary distance between the Tierra del Fuegans he met and the social circle of his beloved's would have given him pause for thought. After all, the biological differences were not all that great.

Maybe it did but he might not have fancied the intricate subtleties of such a subject and so chose a thesis was was easily managed. And explained.

It is possible that he did more than pause. It is difficult to imagine any man of education not doing. But on thinking it out a bit he might have come up against the problem of having to eat some of his earlier pronouncements if he got too deeply involved.

The books, of anyone, are a pale shadow of what is walking around in the boots. Or pulling his nightshirt up. He was actually shagging during the period when he was devastated by the loss of a daughter.

The best way, in my opinion, to read a book like Origins is to read all the biographies of him first. Find out about the man. Then read it.

To take the kids into it with potted versions of bits and pieces chosen for various reasons and not explained or listened to all that well is to get arse about face.

The authors to read are those who survived against the odds and who have a lot of information about them published. So Darwin is a book to read. But my way round.

Try Proust my way round. You won't believe what you've missed.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 05:01 pm
not quite five, not seven years.(1831 to 1836).

Which ed do you read? You should do your own comparitive variorum, that way you could interpret what Darwin was all worried about through each successive edition.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 06:15 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
not quite five, not seven years.(1831 to 1836).


I knew I could prod the pedantics into action with that one fm.

As if it discredits the real point.

Five years of wanking then.

Shall we rather discuss Octavia's new Dalmatian puppy then?
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 06:34 pm
Spendi

And what were Wallace's emotional delusions that lead him to independently come to the same conclusions as old Charlie. I mean after all they tended to base their conclusions upon being influenced by Malthus and Lyell, and observing species differentiation as based upon isolation (interestingly enough there was also an American Spelunker and mining engineer of the late 19th century who noticed the same phenomena in the inhabitants of isolated caves of Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky and you know that only an emotional troll would go in a deep dark hole). I guess, my question is, what was inherently delusional about the mid 19th century that lead to the revolutionary concept of Scientific Evolution? I figure it had to be a concept of the times, because if it weren't old Charlie, you and the Discovery Institute would have to be carping about Alfie, or Auldie, or Louie, or any of another topical botanists, or taxonomists, or animal husbands, or engineers or geologists.

Somehow, the problem comes that Old Charlie is the first nexus of a Aristotlean problem that started with Copernicus and Torricelli and Hemholtz and Redi, and Harvey and Newton among others that determined that observation trumped logic problems that were supposedly solved a millennia or two ago every time. That the Earth wasn't flat, that the geocentric universe wasn't, that maggots didn't spontaneously erupt from rotting meat, that the big Kahuna is much much more sophisticated than expected .

Thanks Spendi, your personal attacks on old Charlie, even if true, are meaningless. His ideas were due---it was his fortune that his name were attached to them.

That's life, Porgy, its always moving on.

Rap
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 06:51 pm
I'm not personally attacking anybody mate. I fully understand CD's predicament.

Quote:
And what were Wallace's emotional delusions that lead him to independently come to the same conclusions as old Charlie.


You can't expect me to speculate upon such personal matters as that surely?

I mentioned in passing in the pub tonight the Sunday Times survey that said that 90% of English women viewed sex as a household chore.

The two married women in the company did a mime of "Can't we talk about Olivia's new hairstyle?" as quick as a flash.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 06:53 pm
spendius wrote:
Evelyn Waugh did a bit of hallucinating in a ship's cabin and he was only on a short trip in a cruise liner.

So seven years on The Beagle must have put a lot of funny ideas into Darwin's head.

One might have thought that the evolutionary distance between the Tierra del Fuegans he met and the social circle of his beloved's would have given him pause for thought. After all, the biological differences were not all that great.

Maybe it did but he might not have fancied the intricate subtleties of such a subject and so chose a thesis was was easily managed. And explained.

It is possible that he did more than pause. It is difficult to imagine any man of education not doing. But on thinking it out a bit he might have come up against the problem of having to eat some of his earlier pronouncements if he got too deeply involved.

The books, of anyone, are a pale shadow of what is walking around in the boots. Or pulling his nightshirt up. He was actually shagging during the period when he was devastated by the loss of a daughter.

The best way, in my opinion, to read a book like Origins is to read all the biographies of him first. Find out about the man. Then read it.

To take the kids into it with potted versions of bits and pieces chosen for various reasons and not explained or listened to all that well is to get arse about face.

The authors to read are those who survived against the odds and who have a lot of information about them published. So Darwin is a book to read. But my way round.

Try Proust my way round. You won't believe what you've missed.


maybe off topic, land of fire? wheres that from? tierra del fuego i mean. i cant place it but i know it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 06:59 pm
You don't really want to know but they descended from monkeys too but without the benefit of Christian theology.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 07:02 pm
Decended from monkeys is 100 percent more honest than all christian (or any other) theology. The later has been responsible for more death and mayhem to all the animal species.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 07:08 pm
Don't try getting honest c.i.

It's alright talking about though.
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raprap
 
  1  
Thu 21 Feb, 2008 07:09 pm
Intelligent Design: Primates Sue
By Mark Reiley

Quote:
HARRISBURG, Pa.-In what is sure to be the biggest courtroom clash since the last one, a class action suit had been filed in federal court against the Dover Area School Board for not allowing the teaching of Intelligent Design in school science classes. The twist? This time, it's the monkeys themselves bringing the suit.

In a startling and unprecedented move, several Bornean Orangutans from the Pittsburgh zoo have sued the school district, insisting that Intelligent Design not only be taught in science classes but the theory of evolution be stricken from textbooks

These Orangutans, or Pongo pygmaeus, are offended by the idea that they are related to people, and think Intelligent Design is the best alternative out there.

One of the plaintiffs, Cuddles, explained her position through a sign language interpreter: "That apes and humans descended from a common ancestor is just a disgusting thought. I'm appalled, frankly. I mean, look at you. Massive poverty, genocide, suffering, violence. Look how you treat your kind. People are horrible, horrible creatures."

She continued, "Have you seen some of the porn on your internet? I can't believe humans pee on each other. And don't get me started on the Tuesday night lineup on ABC. Only true barbarians would keep According to Jim on the air. That I'm related to people in any way should be rejected on face value, let alone be taught in science classes."

The details of the apes' replacement theory are still ambiguous. One version of Intelligent Design posits elements of nature are so complex that they must have been created by a higher force. Among some of the more controversial elements of the ape theory include the idea that this "intelligent designer" of the entire universe is actually a 50 foot tall super smart ape similar to King Kong.

Attorneys representing the school board have questioned the true motives of the apes. In a written statement, school board lawyers claimed the suit was just a cheap parlor trick to manipulate the public and avoid the fact that humans and apes are related through evolution.

But the primates remain undeterred. Bubba, another plaintiff in the suit, has similar thoughts- "Man did not come from apes. Gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees, gibbons, we're all united. I mean, have you seen the contestants on American Idol? Ugh. You humans are just awful. Unlike evolution, Intelligent Design makes the case we're not associated with you at all!"

A U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 1987 decried schools could not require creationism to balance the teaching of evolution. This new lawsuit brought on by the apes may eventually make it up to the conservative justices recently appointed by president George W. Bush. As a result the ruling may be different.

Bush even weighed in on the teaching of the possibility that a super intelligent, furry orangutan created the universe. "I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."


Personally I'm leaning more toward a common ancestor of man and pig.

Rap
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 09:50 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Florida House open to legislative fix on evolution
(By JAMES A. SMITH SR., Florida Baptist Witness, February 21, 2008)

An evolution compromise approved on Feb. 19 by the State Board of Education was the best that could be achieved in that body but legislative action to protect academic freedom of teachers offering criticisms of Darwinian evolution is possible, House Speaker Marco Rubio told Florida Baptist Witness in a Feb. 20 interview.

Rubio said the Board of Education's addition of "scientific theory of" before each reference to "evolution" in new science standards for Florida's public schools was "the best fix available" with "the way those votes were lining up."

Although he and other House leaders supported the theory compromise in a Feb. 19 letter to members of the Board of Education, Rubio said critics who believe explicit language protecting academic freedom is necessary "may be right."

At the Feb. 19 BOE meeting, opponents of the science standards uniformly opposed the theory compromise, arguing instead for an "Academic Freedom Proposal" which would have added a clause to the standards permitting teachers "to engage students in a critical analysis" of Darwinian evolution.

John Sullivan, executive director-treasurer of the Florida Baptist Convention, in a Feb. 17 letter urged the BOE to oppose the theory compromise in light of the standards' "silence about teaching scientific criticisms of evolution."

Sullivan said both strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian evolution should be taught and said the standards should "honor and encourage the academic freedom of teachers and students on an issue of fundamental importance and ongoing scientific controversy."

Asked if the legislature would be open to academic freedom legislation, Rubio told the Witness, "I think so. Sure. Well, I think the Florida House would. I can't speak for the Senate."

Although a vote count had not been taken on the issue, "we may have sufficient votes on that in the Florida House," he added.

Rubio said there also could be activity in the legislature by evolution proponents who wish to remove the theory compromise language.

"I think there's still going to be folks out there talking about this - on both sides. … I think this will be a battle that will go on for quite some time," he said.

The "crux" of the disagreement, according Rubio, is "whether what a parent teaches their children at home should be mocked and derided and undone at the public school level. It goes to the fundamental core of who is ultimately, primarily responsible for the upbringing of children. Is it your public education system or is it your parents?"

Rubio added, "And for me, personally, I don't want a school system that teaches kids that what they're learning at home is wrong."

Rubio, a Cuban-American, made a comparison to the strategy employed by the Communist Party in Cuba where schools encouraged children to turn in parents who criticized Fidel Castro.

"Of course, I'm not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro," he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba.

"In order to impose their totalitarian regime, they destroyed the family; they destroyed the faith links that existed in that society," he said.

Although the evolution issue is "obviously" on a "much smaller scale," both matters are related to the "fundamental question of who is in charge of the upbringing of children. Is it parents or is it the government? I believe it's parents. And we should do nothing in government that undermines that relationship.

"And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it," Rubio said.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:00 am
Good Plan!

Quote:
"And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it," Rubio said.


And then there are those who passionately believe in racial prejudice, pedophilia, that atheists should not be considered American (including the current U.S. President), etc., etc.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:14 am
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Florida House open to legislative fix on evolution
(By JAMES A. SMITH SR., Florida Baptist Witness, February 21, 2008)

The "crux" of the disagreement, according Rubio, is "whether what a parent teaches their children at home should be mocked and derided and undone at the public school level. It goes to the fundamental core of who is ultimately, primarily responsible for the upbringing of children. Is it your public education system or is it your parents?"

Rubio is equating the mere presentation of scientific fact (evolution) with mocking, deriding and undoing.

While I agree that mocking, deriding and undoing should not happen in science class, I also don't think that is what's happening. I think what's happening is that some people find their personal beliefs in direct conflict with basic science, and they interpret that as mocking and deriding.

I see no solution for these people other than to withdraw from any exposure to science. If their belief system is so fragile that it cannot withstand the basic facts of science, then they need to hide from science, because science is reality and it isn't going to change.

Quote:
Rubio added, "And for me, personally, I don't want a school system that teaches kids that what they're learning at home is wrong."

If what they learn at home is in direct conflict with scientific fact, then I see no solution for these people.

If there were a religious sect that believed the earth were hollow and filled with dinosaurs, they would be forced to endure public science classes which considered their views as ridiculous. Hopefully we wouldn't be trying to modify our science standards to allow for other views on whether the earth was hollow or not.

Quote:
Rubio, a Cuban-American, made a comparison to the strategy employed by the Communist Party in Cuba where schools encouraged children to turn in parents who criticized Fidel Castro.

"Of course, I'm not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro," he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba.

Yeh, right Confused Of course he's not trying to equate those two things... what an idiot. This type of character attack on evolution is just pitiful.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:15 am
TCR wrote-

Quote:
And then there are those who passionately believe in racial prejudice, pedophilia, that atheists should not be considered American (including the current U.S. President), etc., etc.


But they are illegal aren't they? (Not atheism of course- that's just pretty unacceptable in polite society due to the logical consequences which follow from adopting it nationally).

Why do you equate something illegal with something which is quite common and taken for granted?

For once a wande quote has some beef in it.

Quote:
It goes to the fundamental core of who is ultimately, primarily responsible for the upbringing of children. Is it your public education system or is it your parents?


Spot on. You could argue, and some do, that if it is your public education system babies should be removed from parental control at birth.

That is the sort of thing that was avoided at Dover.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:25 am
ros wrote-

Quote:
Quote:
Rubio, a Cuban-American, made a comparison to the strategy employed by the Communist Party in Cuba where schools encouraged children to turn in parents who criticized Fidel Castro.

"Of course, I'm not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro," he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba.

Yeh, right Of course he's not trying to equate those two things... what an idiot. This type of character attack on evolution is just pitiful.


Why is it "pitiful". All atheist governments have done that. Not just Cuba.
It's part and parcel of Marxist-Leninism. A scientific given. What's "pitiful" about a well known fact.

Also ros--it is a bit dangerous to talk about "solutions" when you are in a small minority. Majorities find solutions.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:37 am
It would seem that anybody questioning anything regarding evolution is now branded an 'idiot' or "IDjit" or whatever by the leftwing, anti-religious, and/or anti-ID group. And therein lies the huge part of the problem in this whole debate.

Over on the global warming thread, the pro AGW group tries to demonize the skeptics in the same way. It seems to be a common trend to dictate what 'proper thought' must be to avoid the 'idiot' label.

And this kind of implied mind control does seem to be more commonly found among those who claim to be Atheists whether individuals or heads of state.

Thank God we have scientists who are willing to push against the conventional wisdom and look for answers not fully addressed by what science is currently known. Those who can truly claim to be scientists I think are those who accept that we know a very small fraction of all that there is to know. If we didn't have such brave independent thinkers with sufficient curiosity and courage to endure the 'idiot' label, I think we would all still be part of the Flat Earth Society.
0 Replies
 
 

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