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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:51 pm
Fine. Skip the research. But be prepared to leave readers unmoved when you forward your 'knowledge' as being determined by the birthmark on your skin.

The American "ID" movement, such as is happening in this texas case, is creationism. You may have different ideas but this discussion isn't about you.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 02:40 pm
Well then-let's have a discussion about Russian style democracy.

wande never mentioned Texas or America in his thread title. Or your definition of intelligent design.

We are not discussing American Intelligent Design Theory ; American Science or American Religion?

I hope my readers, if I have any, will be moved or unmoved on the basis of the contents of my posts. I'm neutral about other sorts of viewers I'm afraid.

My style of research entails letting things happen in the normal course of events and the facilty of a selective memory for any matters of significance. When you take your significance in with you it is likely to obfusticate.

Selling flattened out wood pulp with ink inserts is a very profitable business. But profit is a funny word. One might make a million dollars profit but by the simple expedient of employing a few secretaries and drivers and things to enhance one's lifestyle one can reduce that profit to the point where no tax at all is due.

Literary persons ABCDEF etc all make $1m and each hosts a lunch for the others and each charges to expenses the cost. That way they all get to charge their lunch as expenses and the steel workers and coal miners can't do that. That's why places like Manhattan have expensive eateries.

The thing is that selling flattened out wood pulp with ink inserts is a very profitable business.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 03:21 pm
spendi, Like so many of your posts, your offerings are worth about the same value as your plywood-inkwell idea. Zilch.

Why don't you come down to the real world where us "normal" people reside?

Your efforts are laughable at best, and you're just taking up space suited for 8th graders.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 06:11 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
Why don't you come down to the real world where us "normal" people reside?


If I did would I get ring-sting in Lhasa and get to eat fish and chips off a formica topped table in Chicago and have to pretend it's a big deal?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 06:20 pm
And what may I ask is wrong with 8th graders taking up space?

I wish I was an 8th grader. I'd willingly take a chance on taking up the space of any American 8th grader.

You can have all my money to fix it and I'm not poor.

Are you envious of other people taking up space?

Are 8th graders of no account?

You blow yourself away man. You don't need any help from me.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 06:29 pm
spendius wrote:
And what may I ask is wrong with 8th graders taking up space?

I wish I was an 8th grader. I'd willingly take a chance on taking up the space of any American 8th grader.

You can have all my money to fix it and I'm not poor.

Are you envious of other people taking up space?

Are 8th graders of no account?

You blow yourself away man. You don't need any help from me.


No, spendi, there's a time when we must "grow up" and be adults.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 07:06 pm
You get on with it then. Count me out. I never could stand phucking adults.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 09:56 am
NEW MEXICO UPDATE

Quote:
Rio Rancho school board rescinds policy on intelligent design
(Associated Press, December 4, 2007)

The Rio Rancho school board has dissolved a policy allowing alternative theories of evolution to be discussed in public school science classes.

The board voted 3-2 last night in favor of rescinding the policy.

The board had voted 3-2 on August 22nd, 2005, to approve the policy.

2 of those board members supporting the policy are still on the board.

Opponents have said the policy was a tactic to teach intelligent design.

That's a theory that life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation.

Nearly all scientists dismiss it as a scientific theory.

Critics say it's nothing more than religion masquerading as science.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 10:59 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Nearly all scientists dismiss it as a scientific theory.


Good grief!! Have they??
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 11:02 am
wande- Will you explain if you can the change in composition of the board between the August and December votes and the reasons for them?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 11:08 am
spendius wrote:
wande- Will you explain if you can the change in composition of the board between the August and December votes and the reasons for them?


The August vote was in 2005. It seems you missed that detail
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 12:06 pm
How do you know and why would it matter anyway?

Are you a traffic warden?

Typical anti-ID pedantry. The obtuse refusal to allow a shorthand usage for something quite obvious. Imagine anti-IDers running the show folks.

wande- could you provide accurate details of the composition of the Rio Rancho school board under consideration in your paste job at the time of the two votes mentioned and the reasons for any changes. (Imagine that in triplicate.)

Are any of the people involved members of a "circulating elite" which is a phrase I introduced recently?

Reading their hopelessly written handouts might be justified scientifically but believing them certainly isn't.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:14 pm
like a horse turd in a dish of tapioca, spendi brings forth another nugget to consider.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 06:25 pm
Hey fm-- I saw a "spider crawling across the birthday cake icing" earlier.

There are many variations and I must admit to not having seen that one before.

Tapioca is a bit bourgeoise though. Flopped on the starched cloth of the high altar in the cathedral has much more balls.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 06:39 pm
And why choose horse turds?

Arms length job eh?

Blame it on horses. Typical half-baked drivel.
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 08:52 pm
spendius wrote:
wande- could you provide accurate details of the composition of the Rio Rancho school board under consideration in your paste job at the time of the two votes mentioned and the reasons for any changes. (Imagine that in triplicate.)



The policy was first passed in 2005, when three people on the five-member board were supporters of ID: pastors Marty Scharfglass and Don Schlichte, and Kathy Jackson, whose husband Kevin Jackson had previously had a formal family organization send copies of Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" to state science teachers. Jackson was later elected Mayor of Rio Rancho, but was forced to resign after a series of financial scandals. In the last school board election, Kathy Jackson was replaced by science supporter Divyesh Patel, and pastors Schlichte and Scharfglass suddenly found themselves in the minority regarding Policy 401. Patel was joined by the two members who opposed the policy from its inception, board president Lisa Cour and member Margaret Terry, and the topic of this divisive policy was re-visited, culminating in a vote on December 3rd, 2007.

Of the fourteen people who made public comments before the vote, eleven supported the board's decision to revoke the policy, while three wanted the policy to be retained. Jesse Johnson talked about the divisive nature of the Dover, PA situation, warning everyone that "One teacher promoting creationism, plus one angry parent, equals a divided community and an expensive lawsuit." Another speaker mentioned that science changes and progresses, while religion remains static, and urged the board to consider the advice of Father George Coyne (former Vatican astronomer) to keep science and religion separate. Teacher Theresa Walker supported revocation of the policy because it redundantly re-states state science standards, and therefore implies that Rio Rancho's science teachers are incapable of following these standards.

The head of the district's Scimatics Academy, science teacher Dan Barbour, had some of the most penetrating commentary:
The policy has done exactly what the Wedge Strategy is designed to do: divide our community, discredit the scientific process, and promote religious explanation as a scientific explanation.

Former State Board of Education member and post author Marshall Berman, a physicist, mentioned that ID claims such as the lack of evidence of evolution in the fossil record are patently false, and that supporting such claims resulted in the Dover PA board members losing their elections, while the district ended up paying a million-dollar fine. Science teacher Jennifer Myashiro talked about how distracting and divisive the policy had been in her own classes, and how the district was running the risk of alienating both good science teachers and high-tech businesses. Another science teacher complained that giving students spoon-fed questions straight out of ID texts was hardly "critical thinking," and asked why, out of 800 state performance standards and benchmarks, was this single standard subjected to such meddling. Physicist and post author Kim Johnson talked about the Lemon Test, and mentioned that Policy 401 certainly engaged both the Effect and Entanglement clauses regarding unconstitutional mixing of religion with public policy, and quite likely the Intent clause as well.

Among those arguing that the board should retain the policy were a parent who said that since neither evolution nor creation could explain new species, both should be taught, and a speaker who cited Einstein's comment that "Science without religion is lame." The executive director of IDnet-NM, Joe Renick, read a lengthy statement defending the policy's "honorable intentions and clear language." Renick said the policy simply promoted neutrality through objective science education, and blamed the speakers against the policy for being the ones who got things so entangled with religion. He also called them the Darwinist SWAT team!
Post author Dave Thomas was the last commenter, and he read Renick's statements on the Christian radio station to the board, explaining that statements such as these were the real reason the policy was perceived as supportive of religion, ID, and creationism.

The board members then discussed their own views on the policy. Members Cour, Patel and Terry gave brief and eloquent reasons for their opposition to the policy. Scharfglass said he still supported his policy because biology indeed challenges the religious beliefs of some students, that evolution should not be a topic of indoctrination, and that NM's standards do not say "Other data should be excluded." Schlichte went on for many minutes, backed up by a Powerpoint presentation which he said was necessary because "Not everyone in our culture understands these issues." He went on for quite a while on the claim that all laws stem from beliefs, some religious in nature, and cited bad laws (Nazi extermination of Jews, Communist suppression, Prohibition) as well as good laws (women's suffrage) as all being based on belief. He said that bad legislation results in the sacrifice of Truth and Freedom, and said that the First Amendment of the Constitution has been reinterpreted from its original purpose (no state-sponsored Religion) to a new, invalid purpose (separation of God from public institutions). He declared that the Supreme Court was schizophrenic for thinking this way, and yet allowing "In God We Trust" to be printed on US currency, or "One Nation Under God" to be included in the Pledge of Allegiance. Schlichte then declared that evolution is just a theory, not a fact, and that students could not learn how to get to Mars if facts (like 2+2=4) were stripped out of science texts. However, he claimed, if all references to evolution were torn out of biology texts (and he complained that they all mention evolution), students would not be impaired one whit in getting to Mars. He then compared the "Two Models," one being "Matter=>Monkeys=>Man" and the other being in the Book of Genesis, and involving the Creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. He said it was better just to remove evolution from school rather than indoctrinate students into believing it as fact, and cited the preponderance of public support for creationism (over 50% in some polls) as evidence that there are valid theories besides evolution.

Board president Cour made a few additional comments, pointing out that the Rio Rancho School District already has policies regarding "Controversial Issues" (Policy 426) and "Freedom of Expression" (Policy 354), and said that students are quite free to pray on their own, and to discuss God and religion in humanities classes like sociology or philosophy, where the discussions are much more respectful and restrained than in science classes. Cour reiterated that students are encouraged to think critically about all topics, not just about evolution, and that she trusts science teachers to follow state curriculum guidelines without redundant coercion by the District. Board president Cour also stated that
Just because evolution is embraced by evil and unethical people, it does not mean evolution is evil.

More:http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/12/game-over-in-ri.html
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 5 Dec, 2007 06:03 am
Thanks, pauligirl!
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 5 Dec, 2007 06:07 am
Thanks Pauli.

Have you any details on the "financial scandals" and on Mr Jackson's "formal family organisation"?

How many teachers recieved a copy of Mr Behe's book?

On the board's web pages it looked like Mr Patel had been replaced by a lady.

Am I right in thinking--

1- That in Rio Rancho the divide goes on gender lines? There seems to be a lot of ladies supporting the "no religion" line and the opposite position is guarded by men with dolicho-blond ancestry. The ladies had a majority on the Polk school board.

2- That education in RR is conducted according to whether or not there could be a court challenge from "one angry parent"?

3- That the scientific justification for monogamous practice and age of consent laws, both of which are contrary to evolution theory, will be critically discussed in the district's schools bilogy lessons?

4- That had Mr Jackson not been accused of financial irregularities, either because he engaged in none or had not been discovered, the children of the district would be getting a different education from the one they will now get, if only for the time being.

5- New text books be required as a result of the latest vote?

PS- Have you any details on voter turn-out in the election for board members and on the mechanics involved?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 5 Dec, 2007 06:32 am
It's coming to something wande when a lady answers my question and you, our threadmaster, can only make snide remarks to cover for your inability to do so.

Are ladies taking over in the US?

Our papers are claiming that both your Secretary of State and the Dem's likely choice for president are lesbians. I don't know if those claims are true but the reports do go into some detail and provide photographs of the interested parties alleged to be involved.

One thing science is good at is spotting the general direction of changes in society and there seems to be signs that a drift, a phenomenum which has a tendency to snowball at some critical point, like a chain reaction, is setting in.

Extremists might even conclude that evolution science is merely the battering ram with which the doors of male privilege, already substantially weakened, are broken down and through which will then pour a horde of ranting lesbians waving cucumbers and giving men the two finger salute.

I won't attempt to describe the eventual outcome as it is too tragic to even think about.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 5 Dec, 2007 07:14 am
" In some men there is a malignant passion to destroy the works of genius, literature and freedom."

Junius.
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