97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:07 am
blatham wrote:
The Texas Republican Party Platform is an interesting read...
2006 voysion
http://www.texasgop.org/site/PageServer?pagename=library_platform


http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/id-venn.thumbnail.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:47 am
xingu-

That's easy stuff.

Just switch from Republicans to Democrats and from Intelligent Design to Atheistic Materialism, which is a religion.

Probably depends on which paper you read and you probably read it because that was the sort of thing you chose to read that paper for.

You can change Politics to Bullshit if you fancy.

I'll put a little flesh on my assertions which I notice you haven't bothered to do. But what's new eh?

Atheistic Materialism has no vision. It can't help but show you how mediocre, insignificant and pointless you are because that's the image of your life it's logic presents. Possibly you don't mind.

Other people, seemingly a large majority, prefer another image to be projected and as Creationism fades away under the steamroller of knowledge, which has only just got out of the garage, the Christian religion is taking on new forms where it lets go of out-of-date attitudes to some things but still, through ceremonials, retains the ability to project an image which makes us feel better about ourselves, especially at certain important points in our lives. How would a atheist materialist describe in scientific language a new born baby and how would a Christian describe it when it has been baptised.

Who on this thread has been baptised?

Aside from the spiritual aspects, isn't it true that people who feel better about themselves perform whatever they do more efficiently.

Explain, if you will, how an atheist materialist would make us feel better about ourselves better than, say, how a lot of us feel at Midnight Mass at Christmastime and with the memories of it.

Doesn't an atheist materialist have to laugh at every aspect of pretention.
Frocks, bling, bonnets etc. Reserved spaces on car parks. It ought to be a struggle according to evolution theory. If he picks out just one aspect of pretention, and one which he can't prove is pretentious, and doesn't laugh at all the myriad other ones then it could look like he has an agenda and we wouldn't want anything so sordid to be sullying up a science thread now would we?

THat's when uniforms come in. Which signify how mediocre, insignificant and pointless you actually are. You're not a uniform manufacturer by any chance are you?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:53 am
I was justifying not changing "Stupidity".

Anyway-- the majority decide what is stupid and what isn't.

As over 90% don't rate atheistic materialism, a figure which would rise significantly if it was to be explained to them what it entails, the consequences I'm afraid, then atheistic materialism must deem itself, with its own logic, to be stupid. Obviously.

That's why I didn't change Stupidity.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:51 am
Spendius wrote:
Explain, if you will, how an atheist materialist would make us feel better about ourselves better than, say, how a lot of us feel at Midnight Mass at Christmastime and with the memories of it.


What's wrong Spendius? Can't you feel good about yourself on your own? Why do you need a church to make you feel better about yourself? Is that task too tough for you to handle on your own?

BTW, ever hear of Christian materialism? If not look around you. Greed and power has always been a part of the Christian religion. Look at Catholicism. Look at televangelism.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 09:23 am
xingu wrote-

Quote:
What's wrong Spendius? Can't you feel good about yourself on your own? Why do you need a church to make you feel better about yourself? Is that task too tough for you to handle on your own?


Where do I come in? I never said anything about me did I. If I did I made a mistake. If I come into it it gets subjective. I'm presenting an argument not talking about myself.

The phenomenum of "uplift" from religious ceremonial and from lesser events inspired by those ceremonials is too well known to need discussion. The fact of it's continued existence through peace and war, through monarchies, dictatorships, democracies, famines, plagues and all sorts of various conditions of society, even in some communist societies, is proof of its elemental nature. It is a survivor. It must be "fit" by your own standards.

What does atheistic materialism offer to replace it? Novelty, drugs, kicks etc. all of which have quite tight limits and are soon used up, or the worship of The Great Leader and The State.

And there's no such thing as Christian materialism. You are confusing the ideal Christian with human weakness. Possibly necessary weakness I'll admit but it still says nothing about the ideal to aim towards and which must be be held in view for us to aim at it.

And how do you propose differentiating between authentic "uplift" and asserted "uplift" such as "I'm fine!" and its many variations when there's a loss of social cachet to being not fine. And in one's own estimation as well as that of others.

What is uplifting about knowing, scientifically, that one is insignificant, pointless and mediocre? Nothing-I know. All you can do is distract yourself from the idea with activity. Shut off from it. But it is a fact under atheistic materialist philosophy. That's repression. Bad news.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 09:50 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Schools' revised science standards saluted
(By RON MATUS, St. Petersburg Times, November 30, 2007)

Two years ago, an influential national think tank concluded in a scathing report that Florida's science standards - which outline what students need to know to be well grounded in the subject - were sprawling, superficial and deserving of a big, fat F.

Amazingly, the Fordham Institute noted, the standards didn't even mention the word "evolution."

Fast-forward to now.

Proposed standards are more focused and better organized. They not only mention evolution, they dub it a "big idea." And this time, they get a thumbs-up from the chief author of the Fordham report.

"Much better," said biologist Paul Gross, a former provost at the University of Virginia, who reviewed the draft at the request of the St. Petersburg Times.

Supporters say good science standards are key to turning around the dismal performance of Florida students on state and national science tests, and making them more competitive in a technology-driven global economy.

Gross agreed to review the standards as an individual and not as a Fordham representative. But as a scientist, he was impressed: "Clearly, the writing committee, whoever they are, have taken to heart all the arguments that have been made about lousy standards," he said.

That's the reaction state education officials were hoping for.

The current standards were adopted in 1996, when some education officials were concerned that direct mention of Darwin's theory of evolution - the keystone of modern biology - would spark a cultural firestorm.

This time, state officials haven't flinched. And though it remains to be seen how much of an uproar there may be from religious conservatives, the proposed standards are garnering strong support from teachers and scientists.

"Nothing like that is ever perfect," said Gerry Meisels, a University of South Florida chemistry professor who directs the state's Coalition for Science Literacy. "But they are a very big step forward."

"They're good science," said Joe Wolf, president of Florida Citizens for Science.

Meisels was among more than 50 scientists, teachers and business people who helped rewrite the standards, which were released in October and can be found on the Department of Education Web site. The public has until Dec. 14 to comment. The Board of Education is expected to vote on them early next year. If passed, the new standards would take effect next fall.

As of Monday, 7,069 people had posted 11,622 comments.

The review of Florida's standards spawned anxiety even before it began.

In the summer of 2005, the Department of Education hired K-12 chancellor Cheri Yecke, who had become embroiled in a controversy over the teaching of intelligent design in Minnesota. A few months later, it postponed the standards review, which had been originally scheduled for 2006. And then, in December 2005, confusion emerged when Gov. Jeb Bush said there should be a "vigorous discussion of varying viewpoints in our classrooms" - a position that some took as a nod to creationism.

"Oh, boy," Meisels said at the time.

Judging by the draft, those fears have not been realized.

"The organization of the plan is entirely respectable, and it pays attention to all the national models," said Gross. "There's not a lot of fluff in it."

That's not to say passions aren't still running strong on evolution.

"Evolution is not science," one person wrote after reviewing the standards on the Internet.

"I am so sick that people have become so brainwashed into thinking that evolution is true," wrote another.

On the other hand, one supporter wrote: "It is very promising that you intend to introduce this concept at such an early age."

Comments on the evolution language appear to be running more than 2-to-1 in favor.

Teachers and scientists like other changes, too.

The current standards have been slammed for trying to teach too much. So the proposed standards cut away some detail, but better wrap what's left around a handful of central themes like earth structures, heredity and energy transfer.

"It focuses more on big ideas and pursues them," Meisels said.

"They're more precise and they're absolutely world class," said Janet Acerra, a fifth-grade teacher at Forest Lakes Elementary in Oldsmar and another member of the revamp team.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 11:56 am
Atheistic materialism is an oxymoron. It's a defensive response from the religious' group who can't justify all that money spent on churches with gold this and that. This world is full of them; it doesn't matter how poor the people of the country.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 12:07 pm
Anyone who gets any uplift out of that has had his critical faculties desensitised or smells a fragrance which calls to mind some aspect of his conditioning vaugely associated with pleasure.

Quote:
sprawling, superficial


Life is sprawling and superficial isn't it. Isn't tunnel vision the opposite. The use of such terms in a pejoritive manner betrays a lack of scientific appreciation. It implies all educational standards are to be referred to the Fordham offices where I have little doubt there exists a fair degree of sprawling and superficial behaviour when the composition of trite handouts has exhausted them for the week.

The whole thing is based on the presumptions of the Fordham staff and tunnel vision has a sort of "noses to the grindstone" feel about it which is anathema to a liberal education.

Quote:
Proposed standards are more focused and better organized


Do they not know that such a statement is meaningless. More focussed and better organised for what.

Oh--bollocks to this. It's boring. It's drivel. We've been through it all before. You're running on the spot again wande.

Quote:
"There's not a lot of fluff in it."


There's not a lot of Pollonium in the drink.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2007 12:09 pm
c.i.'s obviously still got ring sting from his Lhasa trip.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 07:57 am
In Texas. Who'd have suspected?

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/us/03evolution.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 08:07 am
Alarum! Alarum! God-Killing Movie! God-Killing Books! Alarum!
Quote:
Religious furor over 'The Golden Compass'

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-miller2dec02,0,1352215.story?coll=la-home-center
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 08:15 am
Bernie left this bit out-

Quote:
with particular ramifications for the multibillion-dollar textbook industry.


First rule of journalism--"Follow the money".

The blather is neither here nor there.

I drew attention to text-book production two years ago (and since) but it was asserted that I was talkning out of my arse and I should get up to speed with blood clotting in chiclids and 600 million year old fossils of bat's knuckle bones such as one fm had in a glass case which made him feel "scientific".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:22 am


It was a bit long Bernie but I might suggest that the e-mails were a publicity stunt to promote interest as it seems, with a little help from yourself here, it has done.

There's no question that genuine Catholic sources would not have been so easily criticised for their lack of literary merit.

I can see well that the story has a few positive angles from the point of view you represent.

You're up a notch on A2K. It was your idea,

Let's take it up a notch- Bernie said, and then he shoves that obvious spiel at us.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:51 am
Upper St. Clair, Pennsylvania Curriculum Controversy

Quote:
Culture war reflects split between board, residents
(By Mike Cronin, PITTSBUGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW, December 3, 2007)

The national culture war over how teachers should educate children has raged for nearly two years in Upper St. Clair.

New members of a recently elected school board majority, who are to take office today, hope to heal divisions caused by the debate over International Baccalaureate, a curriculum described as advanced by some and Marxist by others. But the healing could be difficult.

"Things won't calm down," said board member Bill Sulkowski, 56, a dentist and opponent of the curriculum. "I feel like I'm in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' when I'm in the boardroom. I don't believe some of the members of this board have the ability to look at the big picture. I question whether (the new board members) will have independent thought."

Outgoing school board President Mark Trombetta, 49, an oncologist, said the culture war has been initiated by "the radical left." Other residents of the South Hills district -- one of Allegheny County's wealthiest -- argue that the conflict's aggressors are religious zealots.

However one characterizes it, the nastiness in Upper St. Clair represents the local front of the battle over what and how America's children should learn.

The focus of Upper St. Clair's dispute is an academically rigorous curriculum designed by a nonprofit educational foundation in Switzerland.

But in other districts, clashes have come over the introduction into the classroom of intelligent design -- a belief that an "intelligent designer," not natural selection, guides life processes -- so it can be taught alongside or instead of evolution.

On Thursday, the former Texas director of science curriculum said officials from that state's education agency pressured her to resign due to evolution politics. Residents in a Long Island, N.Y., school district last month argued whether a night course on "creation science" for adults can be taught on district property.

Opponents of International Baccalaureate say it violates Judeo-Christian values, is anti-American and has ties to Marxism. Supporters say the curriculum is like an advanced placement program with an international perspective that helps students succeed in an interconnected world.
David Masci, a senior research fellow at Washington's Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, said it's not a surprise that at least some of the debate has formed along religious lines.

"Between 65 and 70 percent of Americans say the U.S. is a Christian nation," said Masci, according to polls conducted by Pew.

Daniel Iracki, 54, a pulmonary specialist and member of Upper St. Clair's board, provided a theological-based opposition to the curriculum during a September school board meeting when he read a 4 1/2-page essay.

Iracki, a devout Catholic, argues it teaches students "moral relativism" instead of an absolute notion of what's right and wrong.

His comments included: "Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie;" and, "Jesus Christ as the redeemer of man is the center and purpose of human history. That is why all authentically religious tradition must be allowed to manifest their own identity publicly, free from any pressure to hide or disguise it."

Iracki and parents allied with him vowed to maintain their opposition, despite a new board majority that supports the program and recommendations from two district committees to keep it.

"I wasn't willing to compromise my principles for the facade of everyone getting along," Iracki said after acknowledging that his vigorous protests probably hurt his preferred candidates in last month's election. Iracki also made a motion to eliminate IB at a September board meeting minutes after Trombetta assured a standing-room only audience that the board would not vote on the curriculum's survival. The motion failed.

The curriculum is used in three other local schools, according to the Swiss foundation's Web site. But officials at Quaker Valley High School, Schenley High School and Vincentian Academy said they have had no similar eruptions of controversy.

Vincentian in McCandless is a Catholic school where the staff is paid by Duquesne University, said assistant Principal Bob Caler. About 85 percent of the school's 260 students are enrolled in the curriculum.

"IB does not promote relativism," Caler said of Iracki's critique. "It teaches students to think critically. It challenges them. And it pushes them to explore other viewpoints. In no way is it contradictory to our beliefs as Catholics."

The fight over the program hit its flash point in Upper St. Clair in February 2006 when the school board eliminated it in a 5-4 vote. In addition to the philosophical objections, the majority of the board complained about its cost and what they said was a duplication of advanced placement courses.

A group of parents sued the board the following month, demanding the program's reinstatement. Supporters said the board ignored the community's will in making the decision and did so behind closed doors without seeking public input.

When the board's legal fees hit $200,000, it settled the lawsuit and restored the curriculum.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:54 am
spendius wrote:
Bernie left this bit out-

Quote:
with particular ramifications for the multibillion-dollar textbook industry.


First rule of journalism--"Follow the money".

The blather is neither here nor there.

I drew attention to text-book production two years ago (and since) but it was asserted that I was talkning out of my arse and I should get up to speed with blood clotting in chiclids and 600 million year old fossils of bat's knuckle bones such as one fm had in a glass case which made him feel "scientific".


Your focus on text book profits is fine but not the issue because it isn't the causal factor. Any 'excuse' or 'rationale' would do to 'justify' a rewrite and reprint and restock of school texts. But these various agencies attempting to bring creationism into the science curricula are not, we'll note, attempting to alter notions and teaching on the periodic table. And unless you can demonstrate that these agencies are funded by the textbook industry, your argument is quite irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 12:15 pm
What do you mean by "quite irrelevant"?

Quote:
with particular ramifications for the multibillion-dollar textbook industry.


Mr Blumenthal saw fit to tip the wink and in the article you partly quoted, avoiding the expression, from the NYT, which is a prestigious newspaper I believe and not given to "wasted words".

Multibillion-dollar anything plus adult humans is enough to set off the "Red Alert" in any but the sleepiest of minds and when it is linked to a very contentious but ultimately unresolvable impass it ought be also Jangling and doubly so as the subject is the exclusive preserve of that better class of beta plusses whose task it is to impress inked indentations into flattened out wood pulp and which contains a goodly number of sharp slickers with social and familial connections to their peers in media and the legal profession and to those who aspire to rise into such a world who can be relied upon to hand out the leaflets on the corners.

It is not an unlikely conspiracy theory Bernie. It's a dead cert.

Where is your evidence that it isn't a causal factor in view of it being difficult to imagine what other cause there could possible be.

How could any other "rationale" touch this one for length of legs.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 12:30 pm
Actually Bernie- I'm a little surprised that the editor of the NYT allowed Mr Blumenthal's beautifully ironic expression to stand but he may have felt it wouldn't be noticed I suppose. Maybe he didn't notice it himself.

I'm thinking of the NYT's obvious entanglements with the book "industry" which, as you must know, are quite intimate.

Even though one can be "quite intimate" I don't think one can be "quite irrelevant".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 12:48 pm
spendius wrote:
Actually Bernie- I'm a little surprised that the editor of the NYT allowed Mr Blumenthal's beautifully ironic expression to stand but he may have felt it wouldn't be noticed I suppose. Maybe he didn't notice it himself.

I'm thinking of the NYT's obvious entanglements with the book "industry" which, as you must know, are quite intimate.

Even though one can be "quite intimate" I don't think one can be "quite irrelevant".


You are being careless again. What are the connections between the NYT and the science text book publishing enterprise for texas schools? Both use paper?

That text book publishing turns a profit doesn't make explain this case and it is simply sloppy of you to suggest it so. Unless, of course, you do some research and demonstrate a connection between the motivation of the creationists and text publishing profits.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:00 pm
I'm not siding with one faction.

Think of it like professional wrestling. Anti-IDers are shouting for the blue shorts and creationists are shouting for the red shorts.

IDers are pissing themselves laughing. Proper ones I mean. Creationists are not daft enough to come on here arguing with me,
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:10 pm
One of your problems Bernie is that you define "research" your way. Like going to look things up to bolster a cause.

A lifetime with your eyes and ears open is the method of research I use. Networking is difficult to research in a quick trip to the library or a tap on Google. Those things are for local colour and details. You get so you can't see the haystack for the hay. The snowstorm for the snow maybe is better.

Have you no equivalent of Private Eye over there. Robert Maxwell specialised in scientific publications. Pergamon Press I think it was. Interesting guy was Mr Maxwell.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.13 seconds on 08/16/2025 at 05:29:47