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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:03 am
A tad off topic, but having read the first portion of this delicious piece, I thought folks here might be interested.
Quote:
And as for the argument (derived from God's speech out of the whirlwind in the Book of Job) that God exists on a level far beyond the comprehension of those who complain about his ways, "Doesn't this view mean that God can maim, torment, and murder at will and not be held accountable? . . . . Does might make right?"
These questions are as old as Epicurus, who gave them canonical form: "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, evil."
Many books of theology and philosophy have been written in response to Epicurus's conundrums, but Ehrman's isn't one of them. What impels him is not the fascination of intellectual puzzles, but the anguish produced by what he sees when he opens his eyes. "If he could do miracles for his people throughout the Bible, where is he today when your son is killed in a car accident, or your husband gets multiple sclerosis? . . . I just don't see anything redemptive when Ethiopian babies die of malnutrition."

The horror of the pain and suffering he instances leads Ehrman to be scornful of those who respond to it with cool abstract analyses: "What I find morally repugnant about such books is that they are so far removed from the actual pain and suffering that takes place in our world."

He might have been talking about Antony Flew's "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew, a noted professor of philosophy, announced in 2004 that after decades of writing essays and books from the vantage point of atheism, he now believes in God. "Changed his mind" is not a casual formulation. Flew wouldn't call what has happened to him a conversion, for that would suggest something unavailable to analysis. His journey, he tells us, is best viewed as "a pilgrimage of reason," an extension of his life-long habit of "following the argument no matter where it leads."
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/suffering-evil-and-the-existence-of-god/?em&ex=1194498000&en=db606127c37bce04&ei=5087%0A
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:10 am
I thought it was going to extend rather further but apparently a rather long discussion follows, perhaps like this thread, heaven forfend. None the less, its a good little piece.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:15 am
Hokie wrote-

Quote:
It seems contradictory that if the entire purpose of our reproductive organs is to produce offspring, that they should be programmed to fail beyond a certain age.


The use of the word "fail" is subjective.

The terms ID and Christianity and Fundamentalism and some others are far too complex to be discussed in these ways.

Theology is for theologians. I'm only really interested in the social consequences of Christian ways of thinking being downgraded officially in schools in favour of evolution science. They are immiscible.

A fair number of the consequences are already apparent and I would like anti-IDers to get on with justifying them and their further development unto the uttermost limits of their capacities which is where I think they will end up without a Christian bias in education.

The evolutionary process itself would seem to demand that.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 08:15 am
Mr Flew's "pilgrimage of reason" is to be commended.

Some famous geezer once wrote-

Quote:
...it is a great error of judgement to have lived for what may fail us.


A Jesuit priest actually.

The necessary hegemony of the atheist's (anti-IDers) ego renders being caught in flagrante delicto with an error of judgement very discomfiting.

Because, in the mass of the population, emotion is a far greater force than reason (see Superbowl tit) and spectacularly reinforced by habit, custom, ceremonies, traditions and human limitations (the historical psuedomorphosis) anti-ID cannot possibly win the argument and those who are in bed with it can never admit it as to do so would undo the very buttons of their being. The moreso the longer they have perpetuated the error. Which is why they must rely on assertions shouted louder and louder, and carefully selected quotes are a form of assertion, and why they refuse to discuss the social consequences of their position preferring instead to indulge themselves by imagining this is an abstract discussion in which people are mere objects.

The absolute horror an anti-IDer has of being caught in an error of judgement runs so deep and is so powerful that recovering him from the error is well nigh impossible and only a fool would attempt it. Its bigotry is built of bricks.

But those not yet fallen into the bottomless abyss of atheism may be served warning by this thread of the dangers of doing so which can be seen in a large number of anti-ID posts.

The continuous and seemingly never ending style-free stupidity of anti-IDers (it is stupid to recommend radical changes to the educational system without reference to the potential consequences) cannot possibly be mistaken by any half-way decent practitioner of the English language or common-sense. I know of no atheist writer I can admire.

Their huddling up together, almost bundling, can only serve to kid themselves that they are not in an error of judgement as also does their highly attenuated use of "evidence" which, as with wande's most judicious choices, is somewhat questionable to say the least.

In any imagined fantasy where the ID side was liquidated anti-IDers would be fighting like cats and dogs. It is only ID that holds them together.

In the pub last night I asked an avowed atheist to describe a society in which his view had triumphed. He hadn't a clue. The thought of it had never entered his head. He thought things would remain just as they are except that there would be more people agreeing with him. I suspect that he has encouraged one of his daughters to abort an unwanted baby and he is thus caught having to defend an error of judgement.

If one kept one's atheism to oneself, as La Mettrie did, and ceased to use it in the service of the ego's control freakery (the correct definition of sadism by the way), one would not risk being caught in a "great error of judgement".

Mr Flew has seemingly bitten the bullet which is why he is to be commended.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 08:53 am
spendius wrote:
The continuous and seemingly never ending style-free stupidity of anti-IDers (it is stupid to recommend radical changes to the educational system without reference to the potential consequences) cannot possibly be mistaken by any half-way decent practitioner of the English language or common-sense. .


Spendi,

It's not the first time I agree with some of your contentions but I do only partly agree with this one.

First, not being so far a half-way practitioner of English language, I do not pretend either be a decent practitioner of common sense.

But I've witnessed you exposing your obvious attachment to some of anti-ID concepts, as if this opposition was not as manichean as you clearly assert it is.



spendius wrote:
I know of no atheist writer I can admire.



However, you seem very fond of the Divine Marquis:

« Je te défie toi-même de croire au dieu que tu me prêches car tu ne peux ni le trouver ni le définir. »
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 09:25 am
Francis-

I'm not certain the Marquis was an atheist. He came from a long line of believers going back into the mists.

If he was an atheist why would he present atheist characters in the light he did.

Geoffrey Gorer in his beautiful little book about the Marquis wrote-

Quote:
All his life de Sade was obsessed by God. People who wish to denigrate him by calling him mad would have far more justification in calling him a religious rather than a sexual, maniac. There is not a single one of his writings but is occupied with religion; quite a number deal with sex not at all, or at most summarily.


Dilettante voyeurists nothwithstanding.

And-

Quote:
De Sade was a passionate idealist and could neither forgive a God who permitted all the evil and misery of which he was so terribly aware, nor a Church whose explanations could not satisfy his reason, and whose practice and representitives so completely belied the principles they professed to observe.


That's not atheism.

He seems to me to expose the logic of atheism when applied with courage. Why would an atheist do that in the manner he did? Isn't atheism all sweetness and light?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 09:37 am
spendius wrote:
I'm not certain the Marquis was an atheist.


Certainty is not needed by IDers...

Do a bit more research.


spendius wrote:
Isn't atheism all sweetness and light?


It is? How odd...

Bitter and darkness are also part of it, I'm told...
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 09:50 am
Quote:
Public opinion on evolution still evolving
(By Kerry Lester, Daily Herald, November 6, 2007)

A Monday lecture at Elgin Community College proved just how far the debate on creationism and evolution has evolved.

Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, presented "What Creationists Think About Evolution and Why it's Wrong" at the College's Advanced Technology Center auditorium.

With some seated cross-legged on the auditorium's floor, others perched on its steps, ECC students, faculty and curious community members turned out in droves to hear a leader in the fight to keep evolution in the classroom - and creationism out.

James Richards, an ECC student just a few credits shy of earning an Associates in Science degree, said he considers himself to be both a dedicated Christian and an avid science student. "I'm interested in just how far Scott will go to disprove creationism," he said.

Scott's nonprofit, California-based organization bills itself as the only national organization that specializes in defending evolution education in elementary and secondary schools.

The group closely watches the creationism movement and offers advice to teachers and school boards who have been pressured to downplay evolution or give equal time to creationism.

Most recently, the group consulted pro bono in the Dover, Pa., lawsuit, in which a judge ruled that teaching a version of creationism called intelligent design in a public school science class was unconstitutional.

Scott, a soft-spoken middle-aged woman, presented her group's beliefs - and the common misconceptions they face -matter-of-factly.

Many creationists, she said, wonder why monkeys still exist if humans came from monkeys.

"This misconception illustrates a major confusion held by many about evolution," Scott said, "that fish evolved into amphibians, which evolved into reptiles, which evolved into mammals, which evolved into humans in some ladder of life."

The ladder of life description of evolution, Scott said, "is erroneous. Evolution is really a branching and splitting of lineage's through time. (The difference between) ladders and trees is very profound."

Starting with a conclusion, then looking for evidence to support it, as Biblical-based creationism often does, is "very dangerous. Religious beliefs are fine but shouldn't be confused with science. Whatever your ideology, let the facts speak for themselves," Scott said.

Intelligent design, Scott believes, is "non functional" in schools. She urged members of mainstream Christian communities to step up to the plate, "to say that (teaching evolution) is not an issue to be debated in public schools."

Some ECC students, like Sapana Patel, were encouraged to attend the lecture by their professors. "I disagreed with some of the smaller points she made," Patel said. "But overall I enjoyed it. I'm glad I heard what she had to say."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 10:45 am
Francis wrote-

Quote:
spendius wrote:
I'm not certain the Marquis was an atheist.


Certainty is not needed by IDers...

Do a bit more research.


I was using genteel understatement. I am certain de Sade was not an atheist just like I am certain that Swift didn't eat babies despite him recommending it to the Irish as a solution to famine.

It probably depends on what sort of sense of humour one has.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 12:03 pm
(next page)
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 12:06 pm
CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS - UC LAWSUIT UPDATE

Quote:
UC Discrimination Lawsuit Put on Hold
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 03:38 pm
spendius wrote:
Hokie wrote-

Quote:
It seems contradictory that if the entire purpose of our reproductive organs is to produce offspring, that they should be programmed to fail beyond a certain age.


The use of the word "fail" is subjective.

The terms ID and Christianity and Fundamentalism and some others are far too complex to be discussed in these ways.

Theology is for theologians. I'm only really interested in the social consequences of Christian ways of thinking being downgraded officially in schools in favour of evolution science. They are immiscible.

A fair number of the consequences are already apparent and I would like anti-IDers to get on with justifying them and their further development unto the uttermost limits of their capacities which is where I think they will end up without a Christian bias in education.

The evolutionary process itself would seem to demand that.


social issues caused by downgrading christian ways of thinking? i see the issue that many christians fail to think. they get all of their ideas from a book that cannot be substantiated. they are programmed NOT to question and not to seek and explore truth. that mindset is why for hundreds of years people thought the earth was flat. there were people even burned at the stake for claiming the earth was not the center of the universe. the bible itself claims that the earth was set in its position in the heavens and is unmovable. it claims that the sun rises, sets and returns to it's original position. we know these things to be false. yet it took hundreds of years to show the bible false in these accounts.

how about the crusades as the social impact of christian ways of thinking? how about the inquisition? or the salem witch trials?

it seems to me that is just as much if not more harm done when christian ways of thinking is free to run amok than the inverse.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 04:21 pm
Hokie wrote-

Quote:
i see the issue that many christians fail to think.


No1- "many" is not helpful. Responding to it is a bit like a dialogue with a mist.

No 2- They may just not think aloud. They have certainly done a lot of thinking and exploring in the past.

And all your ideas have come from a book too. Are you sure they are entirely substantiated.

Ovid mentions the earth as a ball. I think Homer did as well. I should think people thought the earth was flat for millions of years.


People were burned at the stake for all sorts of reasons. Somebody being fired from a large plant for trying to organise a union is being "burned at the stake" We are humane but the eradication of disruptive influences has always been a way of an authority which is determined to last. Shameful as it was with our eyes. And no doubt plenty of their's.

The bloke who said the sun was unmovable might have been popped out of his head and time slowed up. Like when the lights are on red and the timing device stops.

The Crusades were mainly pursued for loot. And to get away from wives for a while and after those hot southern wenches. It's only natural innit?

There are apologists for the Inquisition. You might have a one-sided picture.

The Salem thing was an "incident". A hysterical response in fear. Only of historical significance for the use that's been made of it.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 05:39 pm
spendius wrote:
Hokie wrote-

Quote:
i see the issue that many christians fail to think.


No1- "many" is not helpful. Responding to it is a bit like a dialogue with a mist.

No 2- They may just not think aloud. They have certainly done a lot of thinking and exploring in the past.

And all your ideas have come from a book too. Are you sure they are entirely substantiated.

Ovid mentions the earth as a ball. I think Homer did as well. I should think people thought the earth was flat for millions of years.


People were burned at the stake for all sorts of reasons. Somebody being fired from a large plant for trying to organise a union is being "burned at the stake" We are humane but the eradication of disruptive influences has always been a way of an authority which is determined to last. Shameful as it was with our eyes. And no doubt plenty of their's.

The bloke who said the sun was unmovable might have been popped out of his head and time slowed up. Like when the lights are on red and the timing device stops.

The Crusades were mainly pursued for loot. And to get away from wives for a while and after those hot southern wenches. It's only natural innit?

There are apologists for the Inquisition. You might have a one-sided picture.

The Salem thing was an "incident". A hysterical response in fear. Only of historical significance for the use that's been made of it.


Not all of my ideas have come from books. And those that have are largely based on observable situations and are therefore substantiated.

Fine, so people thought the earth was flat for millions of years, is that supposed to help your argument? Besides, I though the christian (usually) stance was that the earth is only a few thousand years old - just as the bible explains.

This is almost not worth arguing since you're obviously trying to take this to the absurd... While people may have been burned at the stake for all sorts of reasons, those reasons often times were because of the mindest of christians.

Oddly enough, I seem to remember the crusades being waged in order to spread christianity and cleans the non-believers. But maybe you were taught a completely different version of history...

I'm sure those people that were drowned, burned, hung or otherwise tortured and killed would think it a bit more than an "incident." One again, these cruelties devised and supported by the good christian folk of the time.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 05:59 pm
I think that the judges hold on this case while he reviews the techy information, will lead to an automatic appeal , should he rule against the "Christians" Their issue of viewpoint discrimination is enhance dbecause , by rules set up in the DAubert case, he will choose his "experts" from a pool of those that academia and attainment of professional credentials rule as "qualified". This is the whole point of viewpoint discrimination. The Christians cant lose , even if they lose.


Just my opinion. Ive been watching this through NCSE
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 06:09 pm
That just goes to show how brainy Christians are.

If you could back horses like that you would be on easy street.

Would you say, fm, that you are on easy street compared to the Tierra del Fuegans who had never heard of Christianity that Mr Darwin happened across after taking advantage of the technologies of his time none of which he had the slightest understanding of.

They had no choice except to work on empirical evidence.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:03 pm
your attempted point is?... never mind, I dont think Id want to wast any time over your detours.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:07 pm
Quote:
Would you say, fm, that you are on easy street compared to the Tierra del Fuegans who had never heard of Christianity that Mr Darwin happened across after taking advantage of the technologies of his time none of which he had the slightest understanding of.


Did Mr DArwin run across Christianity while he was taking advantages of the technology of his time? I thought he larnt it in school. Laughing Laughing

WRiting doesnt come easy to you does it?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:35 pm
farmerman wrote:
I think that the judges hold on this case while he reviews the techy information, will lead to an automatic appeal , should he rule against the "Christians" Their issue of viewpoint discrimination is enhance dbecause , by rules set up in the DAubert case, he will choose his "experts" from a pool of those that academia and attainment of professional credentials rule as "qualified". This is the whole point of viewpoint discrimination. The Christians cant lose , even if they lose.


Just my opinion. Ive been watching this through NCSE


Thanks, farmerman. I will continue to post updates on this thread. I wonder if the judge will write a separate rationale for the science subjects. If he considers the Bob Jones biology textbook valid for college preparation, it would be like endorsing the textbook in the Dover trial. I am waiting for fundamentalists to proclaim "Dover Ain't Over".
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2007 07:39 pm
I tried finding some sample text from "Biology for Christians" , Amazon has the book but nobody's bothered to review it yet.

I suppose it could be used to kill budgies.
0 Replies
 
 

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