Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

spendius wrote:

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Choosing the interpretation of God that suits you best doesn't help you understand God, the way theology(the study of God) should. It's just flattery and it paves the way to mindless self indulgence.

That depends on who the "you" is. If it is those who had charge of Christendom and had incursions coming in from the south and east and north the theology they developed was an answer to those and, in the event, has, so far, been selected in on Darwinian principles. There are dark rumours that it is on the brink of being selected out but I think we are too smart for that.

If the "you" is me or you or any individual then it means nothing.

Those in charge of the development of christendom had incursions? I thought it was more that their government hated them and wanted to kill them until about 300 a.d. The church during that time was a very small, very decentralized organization of people who gathered together in communities and shared their wealth, since the government whose ideals they rebelled against believed that charity could only come from above.

After that, those who kept it going through the dark ages used the most convenient interpretation of God they could. I believe it was Anselm of Canterbury who created a foundation of Christianity based on the feudal system, where committing a crime against god, no matter how small, was basis for eternal punishment. Fortunately, those whose souls were eternally damned only had to turn to the state sponsored religion to find forgiveness, often for a price.

During that time, people weren't kept from studying the bible for themselves because if they looked inside, they might find that what they were being taught was God's will was really just a convenient mechanism with which to threaten punishment.

The rich and powerful have been using christianity for many hundreds of years as a tool to keep themselves rich and powerful not because that's what christianity teaches, but because that's what they find convenient to teach.

spendius wrote:

Anti-IDers are in the same situation as street furniture vandalisers. They can be treated leniently so long as they are only a minor nuisance. Let them become a major nuisance though and you'll see some real action which is what we are all trying to avoid.

I know of no serious analysis of scientific, materialistic, atheism being applied to society which pictures anything other than a ghastly failure. That is why anti-IDers turn away from contemplating the logical outcome of their ideas and spend their time meandering around in a maze of carefully selected abstractions.

You're generalizing again. Not all Anti-IDers want to establish an athiest state. Usually, we only ask that science be allowed to explain natural phenomena without resorting to the supernatural.

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Vengo-

Fancy accusing me of generalizing after that brief synopsis of Christian history. You've gotta a lotta nerve.

One thing to ask yourself is how are incursions fought off? Don't forget incursions didn't usually last long. Supply lines were not as logistically efficient as nowadays and people got homesick. However much of a mess the incursions made there were always pockets with time to think about seeing future ones off. Time after time.

By incursions I mean marauding armies from beyond the frontiers with not one Christian virtue between them.

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spendius wrote:

Vengo-

Fancy accusing me of generalizing after that brief synopsis of Christian history. You've gotta a lotta nerve.

One thing to ask yourself is how are incursions fought off? Don't forget incursions didn't usually last long. Supply lines were not as logistically efficient as nowadays and people got homesick. However much of a mess the incursions made there were always pockets with time to think about seeing future ones off. Time after time.

By incursions I mean marauding armies from beyond the frontiers with not one Christian virtue between them.

I'd like to note that I'm not saying all christians are bad people who want to use their religion to beat people into obedience, and I'm not even saying that all rich christians would like to use their religion to cement their place in the world, all I'm saying is that for hundreds of years Catholicism in particular has been used as a convenient justification for persecution.

As far as my answer to how incursions are fought off, clearly with the sword. That's sort of what's implied by the phrase fought off. I admit freely that I fail to see your point.

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Vengo wrote-

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As far as my answer to how incursions are fought off, clearly with the sword. That's sort of what's implied by the phrase fought off. I admit freely that I fail to see your point.

I fear you do.

It needs a man to hold the sword and some more men to make the sword and some more men to feed and support them all and to manufacture men you need certain processes and if the ones whose task it is to figure out the solution have to wield the sword themselves the solution never gets figured out and the incursions result in being selected out. However bad selected in is.

Obviously it needs some women too. Women who know on which side their bread is buttered I mean. Which feminists don't. They think buttered bread grows on trees.

Is that clear enough?

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Don't you think Vengo that those who object deserve to be persucuted?

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spendius wrote:

aka wrote-

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One doesn't need a Godhead to live a moral life. Only our intelligence is necessary. And a smattering of common sense would be handy.

"After the revolution the Marquis de Sade rewrote La Nouvelle Justine because his earlier version showed man to merely a self-seeking hypocrite whereas the events he witnessed at first hand at the end of the 18th century convinced him, as they would have convinced any honest person that man was, actually, as well as being a self-seeking hypocrite the most blood-thirsty, cruel and lustful animal to have ever walked the face of the earth."

I agree completely. So; what is your point. All you are doing is pointing out that man using his intelligence can out tiger a tiger, out run an antelope, and be crueler than a virus.

Even the Bible noted this--Man was given dominion etc.

The good Marquis could just as well have pointed out that humans can be more loyal than a dog, wiser than an owl, more loving than a kitten but the book probably wouldn't have sold as well. Pornography is still profitable.

In what way, assuming basic human nature hasn't changed, can a human authority control such dark forces when that authority consists of people who have such a nature. Power corrupts. (And absolute power corrupts absolutely) to finish the quote.

Doesn't then a Divine authority have to be conjured into existence? And He's doing pretty good I reckon.

Sometime that will be another discussion. I suspect that the "forces of reason and intelligence" are slowly winning against the "forces of dogma and superstition". I hope :wink:

When we conjure an absolute power into existence, even only an imaginary one, it has the ability to absolutely corrupt. And it often uses this ability . Need I provide examples I thought not

The ability to question is about the only defense we common people have.
Unfortunately due to todays mal informed "political correctness" we do not often have the ability to question anothers beliefs. At least we have it a bit better than Copernicus, Galileo and the Salem (Massachusetts) girls.

Since I "don't know God" I am forbidden to conjecture that Moses was probably hallucinating. (probabilities again ) Other people in similar circumstances hallucinate. Moses wasn't. Go figure

In reference to your next post.
The Greeks also had the festival of Baccus, The Games etc. You might even say they were human also Individually complex--Sociologically simple.

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Listen aka- I've just got back from Karaoke nite at the pub. I hope you are not expecting me to take that lot on.

fm was easy.

But a dog is not "loyal". It has either been conditioned or has done the conditioning. An owl is not wise unless sitting in a tree in the freezing hail blinking and eating raw mice is wisdom and a kitten is nothing but a toy that soon changes into an eating and shitting machine with an exceeding capacity for dossing.

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There you go again,

Failing to attribute animalistic (evolved) traits to humans. Very Happy

Loyalty IS a conditioned response. In humans or dogs. Humans simply use language to promise conditional rewards. Dogs can't talk much.

A few weeks of basic training in any modern armed force should show the validity of my reasoning. Recruits don't talk much either.

And who is to say that an owl, sitting warm and safe on a tree limb is not wise enough to know that to do nothing when nothing can be done is the very essence of wisdom.

The Hippocratic oath even mentions-"First do no harm". Intelligent Question

In the case of an owl it may be instinctual but the result is the same as if it were intelligent. They don't talk much either :wink:

You failed to note my observation that the good Marquis wrote a book that was first and foremost--profitable to the writer. ie. successful within the society for which it was written. It had murder, mayhem,gore, and sex. I regard it as social commentary. Things haven't changed much Sad

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spendius wrote:

Vengo wrote-

Quote:
As far as my answer to how incursions are fought off, clearly with the sword. That's sort of what's implied by the phrase fought off. I admit freely that I fail to see your point.

I fear you do.

It needs a man to hold the sword and some more men to make the sword and some more men to feed and support them all and to manufacture men you need certain processes and if the ones whose task it is to figure out the solution have to wield the sword themselves the solution never gets figured out and the incursions result in being selected out. However bad selected in is.

Obviously it needs some women too. Women who know on which side their bread is buttered I mean. Which feminists don't. They think buttered bread grows on trees.

Is that clear enough?

Don't you think Vengo that those who object deserve to be persucuted?

I think my answer to those questions doesn't belong in the argument at hand, that is, is God necessary for the survival of an ideological group, or is God only necessary when a society needs to "put the fear of God" in its people.

As I sat at work tonight, it occured to me that you don't. Eastern traditions such as Confuscianism and Taoism exist not for contemplation of a God, so much as contemplation of the workings of the universe.

To be fair, I will answer your questions, but I'll have to do it tomorrow.

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aka wrote-

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There you go again,

Failing to attribute animalistic (evolved) traits to humans.

I do do I? It is precisely because I attribute animalistic traits to humans that I think something should be done about it, however woeful given the ingrained nature of those traits due to millions of years of evolution during which they were no doubt useful, and I can't think of any other method other than some religious indoctrination apart from medical intervention or terror. I think you have an inordinate fear of being indoctrinated probably for reasons of self-esteem. You might read Wittgenstein to set your mind at rest on whether you are indoctrinated or not.

What have you got against the Christian forms of indoctrination? Goodness knows there are enough variations to choose from. Some are way out. If there's hell-fire preaching going on only those who like that sort of thing need attend. The virtues are constant pretty much and they come through to a certain extent. Mammon is only a second-rate God.

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Loyalty IS a conditioned response.

That's true but it is so wide in its scope it is meaningless. Loyalty might be no more than habit.

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In humans or dogs. Humans simply use language to promise conditional rewards. Dogs can't talk much.

Yes but dogs are not entirely stupid like cats are. They quickly figure out that they have been granted "domestic pet" status in order to provide their owner with some hero-worship presumably because the owner feels s/he is not getting enough as it is. Have you tried training a cat to wag its tail and gazemaze at your wondrous presence. A sort of incompetent circus animal that has to be taken out to **** off the premises. (Walkies).

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A few weeks of basic training in any modern armed force should show the validity of my reasoning. Recruits don't talk much either.

Done it, been there, used to have one old photo, no scars. Recruits do talk. Ever heard of fragging. A sensible officer knows he's in a small minority and that the animalistic traits you spoke of are closer to eruption in the recruits. Been there too. Smoky.

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And who is to say that an owl, sitting warm and safe on a tree limb is not wise enough to know that to do nothing when nothing can be done is the very essence of wisdom.

That's where Buddah got his big idea from; watching an owl, analysing his observation scientifically and doing the sitting duck act. An owl soon starts doing something when it gets hungry. It can't go to the shop for a tin of curried mouse. That's how stupid owls are and they have been here millions of years longer than us.

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You failed to note my observation that the good Marquis wrote a book that was first and foremost--profitable to the writer. ie. successful within the society for which it was written. It had murder, mayhem,gore, and sex. I regard it as social commentary. Things haven't changed much

I don't think it was profitable. It was not successful either.

de Sade wrote-

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As for the cynical descriptions, we believe that since every situation of the soul is at the disposition of the novelist, there are none which he has not the right to employ; only fools will be scandalized; true virtue is never frightened or alarmed by pictures of vice, only finding therein a further motive for the sacred progress it has imposed on itself. Perhaps there will be an outcry against this work; but who will protest? The libertines, as formerly the hypocrites against Tartuffe.

It is not pornographic because the test of pornography is that it excites. The Marquis was out to disgust and succeeds magnificently. Anybody who is excited by it has a screw loose.

How would "virtue" impose on itself without religion. de Sade faced up to the social consequences and showed what irreligion looked like especially associated with wealth, greed and unbridled ambition. Hence his works are a defence of religion. The best there is. His principle villains are representitives of the four institutions which embody law and order. An aristocrat and his brother, an ecclesiastic, a financier and a judge. All four debauched war profiteers.

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Vengo wrote-

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is God necessary for the survival of an ideological group?

Do you know of a viable "society" that had no "divinity" to provide supra-human authority?

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spendius wrote:

Vengo wrote-

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is God necessary for the survival of an ideological group?

Do you know of a viable "society" that had no "divinity" to provide supra-human authority?

Not entire societies, but certainly there were a large number of the ruling class that adhered to confuscianism. I think there were also a number of other Asian belief systems that were more heavily into philosophy than belief in any deity per se.

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Anti-IDers have constantly referred to the elites having exploited the lower orders using mumbo-jumbo.

A ruling class can hardly be expected to be religious. When I say "society" I mean the whole of it.

It is a question of what service the exploitation seeks to achieve. In the case of the Christian religion it seems to have served, whether intended or not, or understood or not, to produce what some people see as a mutation in the species. A species that can change channels on its TV set with a fingertip utilising energy from the deeps. Science. No other form of humanity has been like that unless it has disappeared without trace which I think highly unlikely. To get excited about a monkey getting a banana within grasping distance, and writing learned tomes on the subject using taxpayer's money, in the face of that seems to me to be opting for an easy ride. The Romans used Legions to get stuff within their grasp. The Big Stick.

Reading in human history as I have done to a certain extent I cannot but be struck by a sense of deep gratitude to the Christian religion. And we are not finished yet. Anti-IDers seem stuck within their own span of years and I suppose that makes sense if they think it is all there is.

The "one-eyed midget shouting the word NOW!"

I wonder if people in the future will feel grateful for us lot.

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Doesn't that prove though, that society can be run from the top without the threat of punishment/reward in the afterlife? Or are you suggesting that the religions of the common people were so widespread, moral and dutifully followed that chaos didn't ensue under the rule of a secular government?

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To begin with there is no chance of the common people not having religion/s. They demand it. And if there's demand there's supply as everybody knows.

The Christian Church was chosen by popular demand refined down the years with a few lurches but usually a touch on the tiller. Like cars and washing machines.

The thing is "the customer is always right". Especially when the demand and supply are interacting over centuries and at a pace too slow to see unless you concentrate hard. And the customer imposes on the supplier.

He imposes celibacy on the supplier and not on himself. And has him dress up in all sorts of wierd and wonderful gear like Pagans did and go through fantastic choreographed rigmassoles and learn a lot of Latin stuff and be able to do sing-song declamations of it. Sober. Try doing "Innominpartyeatspirituetfillyeeswanky" after six pints without laughing. That might be harder than being celibate.

Then he has to witness a lot of funerals, baptise a load of squealing monsters and join a bunch of shagging machines in Holy Matrimony and gaze at the blushing bride without jumping up and down and beating his chest and jabbering incoherently. There's the harrowing bedside scenes to cope with where he sees a fair cross-section of the range of methods of departure. He is supposed to lay off the bottle, be kept skint, go around in black and always have a word of cheer or comfort for any of the customers he comes across.

It's enough to make any sane bloke wish upon sinners an eternal roasting in Hellfire don't you think. And I've only mentioned a few of his problems.

Which roasting, BTW, is not in the here and now and hardly registers on the consciousness once the pews have been swept and the windows opened. One really would have to consider a sinless ascetic life of supplication if the prospect of an eternal roasting in Hellfire was treated as a serious proposition. One might look silly, or irresponsible, fussing over which knife to eat the peas with or one's hemline if an eternal roasting was just around the corner for gluttony and pride and adultery and sloth and other attractions and no confession to go to, another of the supplier's duties, in order to return to a state of grace from where one might proceed to the pink clouds and the shimmering lingerie of the angels. That's why suicide is the big sin. To stop 'em jumping after confession.

Of course, I recognise that a few people do take the prospect of eternal roastings and little imps poking their red hot forks into one seriously. They go in for such things as monastic contemplation in hair shirts and cinders and no salt in the porrige and dirges sung at fixed intervals to a lonesome bell-tone designed to harmonise with despondency, hopelessness and unconsolability. No wonder they perfected wine production.

And if any of the supplier's staff step out of line they get exiled to a poor city area or some far flung outpost if the tourists haven't yet volunteered to colonise it.

And chaos often ensued. Still does. There's traffic chaos and stock market chaos. Each period of chaos teaches lessons. Nobody is trying to claim we have reached any type of perfection.

Society can be run from the top down by other methods. Until modern science terror was the only method. Fear of the here and now. That's a fear you can't forget. You can tell how much people believe in eternal punishment by how easily they forget about it.

They are self-evidently in fear of the here and now and we don't have body parts hanging off the main bridges or incohate skeletons swinging in the breeze in the town squares.

The idea that The Church imposes on its customers is ridiculous. Such an idea can only come out of the heads of people who refuse to see things from another man's point of view.

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society and religion are both extensions of humans getting pleasure from domination, control and power.

No matter how you slice the sake, its still a cake.

Too bad we cant all be equal, and someone insists on being the alpha male top dog.

Is it a coincedence both religion and society use propoganda as their main tools?

Why pay for labor when you can force it.

Why force labor when you can create a situation where its either labor exile or death and the person doing the labor does so willingly?

Some people look at the pyramids and think "wow how amazing!", i look at it and think about how many people died and under what circumstance they lived in. Do we really need a human being to provide us with the word of god if he is so great?
ok im done im getting into the many things religion is.humanity needs morals. i mean REAL morals, the whole do unto others as you would have them do unto" morals, not the "do what i, i mean, what this book says! wait i mean do what god says! this book is written by god! i mean it was copied form a book written by god! i mean wait ok i just smoked some weed and had a good idea to control the population without having to use military force because its logisitically expensive!! wait ok no im just a craazy guy people listen to! wait i am god! yadda yadda
god is real, there is no proof, give me money! i mean donations! yes we need donations because my suv needs gas!, not those morals, REAL ones.

The kind of morals you dont need to read in a fairytale.

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Good rant OGI.

Like you I see the pyramids as a pile of old bloodstained stones. The pebbles in the rapids of hill streams are much more interesting.

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im a ranting raving lunatic i know i know. i couldnt help it.
all this religious proganda to obtain power and wealth is what i like to call
"evil"

Razz

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And you may well be quite justified. Providing, of course, that you live as a lone-wolf and not in a vast network of interconnected human beings each ploughing along as best they can with the same urges you have and the directed efforts of which has stood us all in such good stead.

Are not the mods a type of god. They have codes and punishments. Would it not be a punishment to be refused entry to A2K and banished for all eternity to the nether regions of the dark underworld where the pangs of loss would stab at the heart. Would A2K run sweetly without them?

It would be primeval chaos I rather think. The urges being the only arbiter.

We all trust that your urges, untrammeled by discipline, would include the desire to good unto others all the time and not just most of the time when you're feeling expansive. One lapse can be a bit traumatic for third parties. Even the threat of eternal punishment has not proved sufficient to eradicate such lapses by any stretch of the imagination.

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Pages in category "Roman Catholic vestments"
There are 36 pages in this section of this category.

A
Alb
Amice
B
Biretta
Buskin
C
Calotte
Cappello romano
Cassock
Cassock-alb
Chasuble
Chimere
Choir dress
Cincture
C cont.
Clerical collar
Cope
Cornette
D
Dalmatic
E
Episcopal Gloves
F
Fascia (vestment)
Ferraiolo
G
Galero
Gremiale
H
Humeral veil
M
Maniple (vestment)
Mantelletta
Mitre
M cont.
Mozzetta
P
Pallium
Pontifical
R
Rationale
Rochet
S
Scapular
Simar
Stole
Surplice
T
Tunicle
Z
Zucchetto

Each of these can be Googled for those who seek to really know about things.

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