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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Sat 18 Aug, 2007 04:02 pm
Spendi, if I recall correctly, your argument started out along the lines of: God is necessary for the sake of stable society, and the Anti-IDers, if their ideas were followed through, would dismantle that society.

Doesn't the example of secular eastern governments prove that God isn't a necessary part of a country's governmental grounding?

Moreover, since this topic is about the debate as to whether Intelligent Design is science or religion, doesn't this suggest that it isn't necessary to bring God as an explanation into science(an idea neither religion nor science advocates)? And if it isn't necessary, shouldn't it be proposed on its merits alone, rather than on the belief that evolutionism is wrong, the way so many IDers do(i.e. IDers should stop making their case by arguing, "it's insane that the evolutionists believe our universe sprung from nothing. If I show you a watch, you don't assume it sprung into existence randomly." and then they go on to list a myriad of other problems and "problems" in modern evolutionary theory)

spendius wrote:
Are not the mods a type of god. They have codes and punishments. Would it not be a punishment to be refused entry to A2K and banished for all eternity to the nether regions of the dark underworld where the pangs of loss would stab at the heart. Would A2K run sweetly without them?

It would be primeval chaos I rather think. The urges being the only arbiter.

We all trust that your urges, untrammeled by discipline, would include the desire to good unto others all the time and not just most of the time when you're feeling expansive. One lapse can be a bit traumatic for third parties. Even the threat of eternal punishment has not proved sufficient to eradicate such lapses by any stretch of the imagination.


The mods are only gods if you assume that all code enforcing entities are divine.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Aug, 2007 05:23 pm
Vengo wrote-

Quote:
Spendi, if I recall correctly, your argument started out along the lines of: God is necessary for the sake of stable society, and the Anti-IDers, if their ideas were followed through, would dismantle that society.


I think "dismantle" is not quite correct. Render it unrecognisable to the American Union of Mums is more how I would describe it.

Quote:
Doesn't the example of secular eastern governments prove that God isn't a necessary part of a country's governmental grounding?


Only if you fancy living under a secular eastern government. Which I don't.

Get it firmly fixed in your conk. I do not think evolutionism is wrong. It's like saying that if you flip the switch the light comes on. It's hardly an explanation.

Quote:
The mods are only gods if you assume that all code enforcing entities are divine.


If you don't you're banned. Sine die. Which is Latin for eternity.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 18 Aug, 2007 05:48 pm
spendi: I do not think evolutionism is wrong.

Please expand on this statement of yours. Want to make sure the meaning is what it says. LOL
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Aug, 2007 06:06 pm
I did expand on it.

I said-

Quote:
It's like saying that if you flip the switch the light comes on. It's hardly an explanation.


That's simple enough.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 18 Aug, 2007 06:10 pm
I knew what you wrote didn't have the same meaning from writer to reader. Good try, though!
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 07:47 am
Re pyramids

Due the nature of reproduction strategies any unintelligent organism will always reproduce (or replicate itself) to the limits of its environment.

Consequently there will always be more humans available than are necessary to maintain populations or living standards.

So the rulers are faced with either a well fed idle population (see France today)
which causes a certain bit of discomfort to the governors, or a starving idle population which also causes similar discomforts. (See Weimar republic)

So the governors must devise strategies to keep themselves in Mercedes, Zils, and Cadillacs.

I have always regarded pyramids, cathedrals etc. as simply a way for the governors to soak up that excess labor.

Wars and public works are simply the more obvious of these strategies.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 09:14 am
Yes- the Devil makes work for idle hands. And starvation has a natural force of its own.

But they can keep them hard at it when not at work. Shopping, theme parks, traffic jams, golf etc.

Veblen called it the "night shift". The main thing is to tire them out.

Sunday services are relaxing and don't do that.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 09:45 am
It's so relaxing, some fall asleep. LOL
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Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:38 am
spendius wrote:


Quote:
Doesn't the example of secular eastern governments prove that God isn't a necessary part of a country's governmental grounding?


Only if you fancy living under a secular eastern government. Which I don't.



Obviously if one secular government turns out a certain way, ALL secular governments must turn out that way. [/sarcasm]

spendius wrote:
Get it firmly fixed in your conk. I do not think evolutionism is wrong. It's like saying that if you flip the switch the light comes on. It's hardly an explanation.


I hope I didn't give you the impression that I did think you thought evolutionism was wrong. I just get the impression that for some reason you'd like to see intelligent design taught in science classes as a serious alternative to evolution, and I don't see why it should be unless it can stand on its own merits, of which I know none.

spendius wrote:
Quote:
The mods are only gods if you assume that all code enforcing entities are divine.


If you don't you're banned. Sine die. Which is Latin for eternity.


Well I don't believe that all code enforcing entities are divine, that's why I don't worship the police, I only follow their rules.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:59 am
Out of fear presumably.

I don't think ID should be taught at all. Nor evolution theory. Not to kids.

I think moidering about either is just an excuse to avoid real science teaching. Science teaching seems to me a method of identifying those few who are capable and interested enough to become the scientists of the future. The number of people who can tolerate the intellectual severities of scientific methodology is very small.

You seem to be assuming that the average IQ is 130. You can't build an educational policy on such tomfoolery.

You can end up with people thinking that the explanation given on Coolwhip's thread (see below) is at all satisfactory and the recommendation at the end being worth wasting your time on.
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Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 12:32 pm
spendius wrote:
Out of fear presumably.

I don't think ID should be taught at all. Nor evolution theory. Not to kids.

I think moidering about either is just an excuse to avoid real science teaching. Science teaching seems to me a method of identifying those few who are capable and interested enough to become the scientists of the future. The number of people who can tolerate the intellectual severities of scientific methodology is very small.

You seem to be assuming that the average IQ is 130. You can't build an educational policy on such tomfoolery.

You can end up with people thinking that the explanation given on Coolwhip's thread (see below) is at all satisfactory and the recommendation at the end being worth wasting your time on.


I guess I can get behind the notion that neither theory should be taught until students can get a full grasp on it. You don't see people teaching calculus to students who only know how to add and subtract.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 03:15 pm
It has been my position all along.

I think people want to teach evolution because it's a hobby horse of their's and they want to ram it down everybody's throats because they think they understand the simpler aspects of the theory, which isn't difficult, and will thus get promotions for them doing the rammings.

Any unfortunate side-effects it might have seemingly doesn't concern them. They are not even prepared to consider them.

One post a fair while ago (from wande I think) dealt with a survey that showed that 30 or 40 percent of American teachers skip the evolution sections in biology classes in order to keep the peace.

As far as agricultural states are concerned to not do that seems like deliberate provocation and an attempt to impose materialistic city values on the people who grow the food. In the cities they just eat it and beam crap TV back and design all the fine print.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 03:26 pm
spendi: I don't think ID should be taught at all. Nor evolution theory. Not to kids.


What are you smoking now, spendi? Many of the sciences automatically fall into the realm of evolution. Are you nuts?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 04:42 pm
What a phewking stupid question that is.

How would I know?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 05:06 pm
If you don't know, why make stupid statements to begin with?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 05:10 pm
Explain to me how people who are nuts avoid making stupid statements. They wouldn't be nuts if they could manage it without your advice c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 05:21 pm
True!
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:45 pm
Well, after some 12 000 posts I really think we're making progress on this thread!
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Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:23 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Nor evolution theory. Not to kids.

Shocked Why not?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Aug, 2007 05:29 am
Thomas-

You are not exhibiting an attitude to this thread, or even this page, which a scientific mind ought to wish to do.

It was me who said the words you quoted c.i. as having said.

One can hardly expect to have a say in how the educational system is run when one displays such a cavalier attitude.

c.i. would never say such a thing anyway as anyone who pays attention to this thread or even the post quoted would know. He even suggested I was nuts for having said it.

On the second page of the thread wande quoted this-

Quote:
Kyle Cunningham, a professor of genetics at Johns Hopkins University, made the trip from Baltimore to hear Behe speak. "The ID movement is not about enlightenment," Cunningham said. "It's about creating confusion in an effort to ultimately remove evolution from the classroom."


If you are not aware of the arguments for removing evolution theory from classrooms for underage people, which Vengo has been brought to agree with, along with millions of others, perhaps you might consider reading the thread where a few of the milder ones have been given an airing.
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