Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

It will be a waste of time reading Mathos's Pol Pot missive,if it ever arrives, because all it will say is what no feeling looks like in action in one particular place at one particular time. It can happen in other places.

Strange observation from somebody who spends most of his out of home experience at the local pub.

wande quoted-



If scientists start politicking are they still scientists at the time they are engaged in such an activity. I would say they cannot be because they are taking a subjective stance based on a view that their position will be beneficial to the voters as a whole without presenting any evidence that that is so. They have become partisan in a way which betrays the scientific viewpoint which is neutral on such matters. Whatever their motive it is not scientific because they only have assertions to work on.



And that is not the case. The argument is not about all science. It is about a small and relatively minor aspect of science which is of some importance in the political, economic and social aspects of national life. Even Creationists are not opposed to science education in general and iders most certainly are not as my previous post was intended to make clear.

c.i. wrote-using similar smear tactics-



I go to the pub everynight at 10.30 pm for about an hour and a half and 3 pints of health giving 3.8% beer and to socialise with my neighbours as do millions of others including many scientists some of whose number can drink me under the table.

Your continual harping on about that exposes a puritan streak in your make up c.i. You seem to spend your "out of home" time in admiring foreign places and when you get back you start banging on about how others spend their "out of home" time as if your choice is somehow superior which I don't think is the case. What I spend in the pub is taxed at 90% plus and thus goes to help fund education, including science education, whereas what you spend in other countries goes to help their educational choices and possibly some anti-American activities as well. And I walk to the pub whereas you make an unholy din in the vicinity of airports and an enormous oil digestion fart in your wake and put chemicals into the atmosphere of unknown consequences.

And I have a job. I would shut up about the pub, and me, if I was you and try to offer your thoughts on the Empedocles post and then I might take you seriously.

The post you refer to simply tried to make the point that the dehumanized human being is evil and that there's no need to go into the gruesome details of one particular case unless dwelling on the details is the purpose of the exercise. It wasn't a difficult point to grasp. And it wasn't "strange". It is well known.

Doesn't the defence of those involved in atrocities in Abu Ghraib rightly bring in the dehumanizing aspects of their circumstances as mitigation for their actions?

spendi prefers local pub = c.i. prefers world travel.

Both choices are our own preference; our choice. Nothing wrong with either one, mate.

On November 9th 1953 Cambodia gained independence from the French.

In 1955 King Sihanouk of Cambodia abdicated as king and became active
politically as Head of State.


The ordinary Cambodians continued to revere him as The Father of The Nation, The god king. He took the title of Prince Sihanouk. He turned a blind eye to the Viet Cong soldiers establishing themselves sanctuaries in his country or indeed he may well have been under threat or pressure from the Vietnamese or China.


President Nixon acting on policies issued by his security adviser Henry Kissinger made a decision to bomb Cambodia, a neutral country, and certainly not at war with America. Five hundred and forty thousand tons of bombs were dropped on Cambodia by American planes. This was double the amount dropped on Japan during the whole of World War Two. These bombardments took the names:-'Breakfast-Lunch-Snack-Dinner-Dessert-and Supper.' The B52's were able to fly at high altitude and could not be seen, neither could they distinguish between Viet Cong or innocent, defenceless, men, women and children of a third world country living in wooden flimsy stilted huts.


As these murderous American bombs rained down on Cambodia the revolutionaries in Cambodia grew in strength. This previous ragamuffin band of also rans was fast becoming a powerful insurgency, Cambodia's poor and this was the majority of the countries population was looking for a saviour to extract them from warfare, poverty, starvation and end this ,meagre existence. The support commenced in small villages and spread, it spread to towns, to cities and eventually Phnom Penh itself.


The world would soon come to know the name Prince Sihanouk had derisively bestowed upon these ragamuffins; The Khmers Rouges or Red Cambodians and time would show Pol Pot as their leader.


The young men who suddenly appeared on the streets of the capital did what one might well associate with conquering heroes. Driving about in jeeps with an unknown flag, a white cross on a blue and red field waved to the cheers of the crowds as they passed by. They took control of the key instillations, fraternised with government soldiers and police, who threw away their weapons and waved white flags to show their positions of surrender. The people were happy, no more civil war, no rockets raining down on their homes, no conscription, the end of a rotten and deeply hated regime. They took control of the radio station, made appeals for calm, requested all government troops to lay down their arms. Broadcast that negotiations were peacefully taking place with representatives of the ?'other side' to ensure a smooth take over by The Khmers Rouges. As things settled a harsh statement was broadcast:- "We are not hear to negotiate, we are entering the capital through force of arms.


The Charade was over.


{More to follow)

spendi. In your Universe perhaps spendi. AS far as the colonies, the issue sides are firmly drawn, You are certainly free to enter your own position, but dont feel put-against if few pick up .

Whatever"real id " is, you be happy with it hear?

spendi againIf scientists start politicking are they still scientists at the time they are engaged in such an activity

Yes- I'm afraid that is the case with intellectuals. And scientists are supposed to be intellectuals. Not exactly renounce though. That's too positive. They ought not to "feel" themselves partisan to any nationality.

I read one scientist who discussed the pull his nationality had on him by satirically referring to his looking in the papers, wherever he was, for how the football team he supported as a kid had gone on. He said he couldn't get rid of that implying that he had got rid of much else. His citizenship is a legal matter. How he "feels" is something else. One isn't an "American" or a "Brit" in scientific research. One is a human being with a pure objective mindset and a disinterested curiosity.

That is the main reason why intellectuals are unpopular.

The question was-



The absence of an answer is evidence of an inability to provide one (Not again surely!). This is "Ask a Question- Get Answers" isn't it? I asked that question. When I was asked the muzzling question I answered it. You lot haven't yet and now here's another. You're sputtering.

My pub and truck drivers milkmaids are just snow. Sheer sophistry and of a very low order. And that insults the intelligence of our viewers.

Why don't you deny "feeling" any role at all? If you are not up for that you have no foundations. You're piss-balling about with words.

Why don't you try to show how efficient a nation of non-feeling people would be? That would at least be respectable. Otherwise you have to be in favour of those institutions which nourish the feeling side of humanity and agree it contributes, in balance, to the efficiency of our institutions.

Pub. Cheers.

spendi. Actually that quote came from a Philosophy professor friend of mine who teaches at LA Salle U(and is himself a Christian Brother). So only scientists must renounce their citizenship?

I see.

fm- No.

You CAN'T renounce a thing like citizenship. An intellectual doesn't have it in the first place. Check out my member profile which was put up before I made my first post.

A pet dog has citizenship. Try telling the dog. A dog is an intellectual. It just isn't very bright. It has nothing to do with intelligence except insofar as very intelligent people tend to arrive at that position by trial and error.

The "Russian Bear", the "American Eagle", the " British Bulldog" etc.

I'm talking "ideal types" of course. Ask your mate about it.

La Mettrie said that there need be no correspondence between an author and his work because he writes for truth and speaks and acts for convenience. Bob Dylan was asked was he still Jewish and he replied- "I'm Jewish when I wanna be". Is an astronomer American when he's looking at the heavens? Is a man an American when he's copulating. (I can't call it "making love" on a science thread---that would be ridiculous.)

And again you provide no answer to the two questions.

I think, for what it's worth, that you anti-IDers have pushed your anti-ID without it being scrutinised and now it is being scrutinised you fear having to retract all your previous statements as your pride is in the way of that.

spendi. I find that you make lots of statements , mostl without any apparent logic behind them. Perhaps you can elaborate on this point?. Wow, are we lost on our page here?

Sounds like one of those dodges some people use to try to avoid paying taxes.

Joe(wha? Sorry, can't pay. Man without a country here. Right)Nation

Well now, thats true Joe. After all the IRS code is "voluntary". MAybe spendi uses his words with that Orwellian spirit of meaning.

My favorite govmint phrase has always been "enhanced radiation"

I wonder if he would make the same argument he has regarding scientists and their (distasteful? anti-intellectual? untoward? It's difficult to know what he is arguing) involvement in politics in regard to the various pastors who engage in vigorous (tax-free) political opposition to everything from gay marriage to stem cell research to voting rights to immigration to the subject of this thread.

It used to happen so seldom, the occurence of pure unadulterated nonsense, yet here we are offered incidence after incidence after incidence.

Joe(there is no escape)Nation

The Charade was over Continuation.

Existing government officials of the old regime in Phnom Penh considered they would be required by the Khmers Rouges, so much so they declined to leave. After all, these were fellow Cambodians, not a real enemy, patriots first, our friends not really communists!


Lon Non government intelligence one of the best informed men in the country considered it appropriate to stay on. The Prime Minister Long Boret declined to leave likewise his predecessor Hung Thun Hak who had known Pol Pot in his student days, when he was called Saloth Sar, they had no idea of what was to come. A carnival attitude was held by the Capital, then the main force arrived:-

These soldiers were covered in filthy grime, all wearing black pyjama uniforms with coloured headbands or peaked caps of the Mao type.
These were from the dirt poor villages, illiterate, destitute peasants, never educated, unaware of mechanical devices of any kind, they had never seen money, up to becoming part of Pol Pot's army they had never seen a bicycle, let alone a car. The Khmers Rouges had built their strongholds around and from these people, they were to become ?'The Primal Gene-Pool
From which the revolution would be formed. The poorest of the poor the e town dwellers would see how primitive this conquering force was. They thought toilets were city peoples wells and drank from them, they could not understand eating or drinking from a bottle or a can. They drank cans of oil ate toothpaste. Many were no more than twelve or thirteen years of age, only a little taller than the AK47's they toted. They took cars and motorcycles, having no idea how to drive them, they crashed into buildings, walls, trees, and then looked for another. They cut of the tyres to make sandals from the rubber treads. They had a fascination for biro's with click tops, they had four or five wristwatches on each arm, although they had no idea how to tell the time. They smashed up televisions, and furnishings. They had been conditioned by the elite of Pol Pot to hate the city dwellers, they held their bourgeois life style in contempt. Women and children were raped, murdered, men too. They had a learned hatred for anything occidental, especially American. In Battambang they tore apart two T28 bombers with their bare hands.

A Phnom Penh Doctor would later write:- "There was something excessive about their anger, something has happened to these people during their years in the jungle. They have been transformed"


The next phase began:-

Soldiers went from house to house telling the dwellers they must leave for a few days on the pretext that American bombers were coming to bomb Phnom Penh. Obviously being told to evacuate, thinking they would be returning after the ?'air raid' meant they would not be too serious about removing too many possessions from their homes. Considering a population of some two and a half million in Phnom Penh some one million nine hundred thousand were from slum areas, their possessions were virtually zilch. The authentic city dwellers some six hundred thousand did not wish to leave behind everything they held dear.


The evacuation was a mess.

At the same time the troops from four different zones of the Khmers Rouges met up in Phnom Penh all giving contradictory orders and receiving them. Buildings and homes were being looted, more raping ,pillaging and murdering. The doors of the Russian Embassy were blown away with a B-40 rocket. Diplomats were driven out at gunpoint. People were fleeing in terror, within minutes, a seething mass of refugees urged by bullets from child soldiers firing in all directions.


April is the hottest month in Cambodia.

One of these refugees would later write:-

Sick people were left dying by their own families at the roadside. Others were simply killed by soldiers because they could walk no further. Children who had lost their parents cried and screamed out in fear, parents who had lost their children in this mad exodus were crying and pleading for help. Women gave birth on the roads, in the fields, besides the dead.

Patients in hospitals were evicted Thousand of sick and wounded were abandoned in the city. The strong pulled or dragged themselves along, families pushes relations in beds, plasma and IV bottles besides them. One cripple with neither hands or feet was slithering along the road like a severed worm. One man, his foot dangling at the end of a leg attached by nothing but skin hopped along the road.


When Phnom Penh fell there were some 20,ooo patients evicted from hospitals. They had no chance at all.
The Charade was over Continuation.

Existing government officials of the old regime in Phnom Penh considered they would be required by the Khmers Rouges, so much so they declined to leave. After all, these were fellow Cambodians, not a real enemy, patriots first, our friends not really communists!


Lon Non government intelligence one of the best informed men in the country considered it appropriate to stay on. The Prime Minister Long Boret declined to leave likewise his predecessor Hung Thun Hak who had known Pol Pot in his student days, when he was called Saloth Sar, they had no idea of what was to come. A carnival attitude was held by the Capital, then the main force arrived:-

These soldiers were covered in filthy grime, all wearing black pyjama uniforms with coloured headbands or peaked caps of the Mao type.
These were from the dirt poor villages, illiterate, destitute peasants, never educated, unaware of mechanical devices of any kind, they had never seen money, up to becoming part of Pol Pot's army they had never seen a bicycle, let alone a car. The Khmers Rouges had built their strongholds around and from these people, they were to become ?'The Primal Gene-Pool
From which the revolution would be formed. The poorest of the poor the e town dwellers would see how primitive this conquering force was. They thought toilets were city peoples wells and drank from them, they could not understand eating or drinking from a bottle or a can. They drank cans of oil ate toothpaste. Many were no more than twelve or thirteen years of age, only a little taller than the AK47's they toted. They took cars and motorcycles, having no idea how to drive them, they crashed into buildings, walls, trees, and then looked for another. They cut of the tyres to make sandals from the rubber treads. They had a fascination for biro's with click tops, they had four or five wristwatches on each arm, although they had no idea how to tell the time. They smashed up televisions, and furnishings. They had been conditioned by the elite of Pol Pot to hate the city dwellers, they held their bourgeois life style in contempt. Women and children were raped, murdered, men too. They had a learned hatred for anything occidental, especially American. In Battambang they tore apart two T28 bombers with their bare hands.

A Phnom Penh Doctor would later write:- "There was something excessive about their anger, something has happened to these people during their years in the jungle. They have been transformed"


The next phase began:-

Soldiers went from house to house telling the dwellers they must leave for a few days on the pretext that American bombers were coming to bomb Phnom Penh. Obviously being told to evacuate, thinking they would be returning after the ?'air raid' meant they would not be too serious about removing too many possessions from their homes. Considering a population of some two and a half million in Phnom Penh some one million nine hundred thousand were from slum areas, their possessions were virtually zilch. The authentic city dwellers some six hundred thousand did not wish to leave behind everything they held dear.


The evacuation was a mess.

At the same time the troops from four different zones of the Khmers Rouges met up in Phnom Penh all giving contradictory orders and receiving them. Buildings and homes were being looted, more raping ,pillaging and murdering. The doors of the Russian Embassy were blown away with a B-40 rocket. Diplomats were driven out at gunpoint. People were fleeing in terror, within minutes, a seething mass of refugees urged by bullets from child soldiers firing in all directions.


April is the hottest month in Cambodia.

One of these refugees would later write:-

Sick people were left dying by their own families at the roadside. Others were simply killed by soldiers because they could walk no further. Children who had lost their parents cried and screamed out in fear, parents who had lost their children in this mad exodus were crying and pleading for help. Women gave birth on the roads, in the fields, besides the dead.

Patients in hospitals were evicted Thousand of sick and wounded were abandoned in the city. The strong pulled or dragged themselves along, families pushes relations in beds, plasma and IV bottles besides them. One cripple with neither hands or feet was slithering along the road like a severed worm. One man, his foot dangling at the end of a leg attached by nothing but skin hopped along the road.


When Phnom Penh fell there were some 20,ooo patients evicted from hospitals. They had no chance at all.

Do you really not understand this-



Joe wrote-



One would need to know their motive. As Robespierre said- "Where's the mob going- I'm it's leader".

They might well not give a damn about any of those issues but recognise the opportunities they offer to a good rhetorician is search of fame and fortune. Obviously you wouldn't get them to admit it. But no intellectual would assume it wasn't like that and nor would he assume that they didn't really mean it. The "(tax free") hints at the cynical approach.

The "nonsense" is yet again another self-serving assertion with no meaning outside of its origin. Anybody can label anything "nonsense". Its confessional.

fm wrote-



I did do when I described how Vic, one of my pub mates, became a communist due to finding a badge on a playing field when he was 13. Anyone who understood the point of that little tale would not likely forget it. Not ever. I'll tell it again. He finds this badge with a hammer and sickle on it and fastens it in his lapel. He has no idea what it means. A teacher notices it and when they have a political debate (imagine 13 year olds doing that- but never mind- it saves teaching) he appoints Vic as spokesperson for Communism. Vic becomes a communist. I have persuaded him not to be any longer. But I can't stop him hating fat-cats.

Perhaps reading the thread with a view to learning something might help.



Are you seriously saying that idea is new to you? Good grief fm!

Sorry for the double cut and paste!

It's okay Mathos. I didn't notice it.