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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 05:47 am
Actually fm- I think you would love Dylan too if you would put your prejudices to one side and give his work the attention it deserves. Although I'll admit it is some task.

Paul Williams's books might fire you up.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 05:55 am
Dylan is real id.

No preachers, no vicars, no rabbis, no priests.

Just the distilled wisdom of centuries performed in a way that just says there's no way this could have evolved from monkeys.

Quote:
I'm gonna change my way of thinking
Gonna get myself a brand new set of rules
I'm gonna change my way of thinking
Gonna get myself a brand new set of rules
Gonna put my best foot forward
And stop being influenced by fools.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 05:59 am
SPENDI-DEFENDING BOB DYLAN'S MUSIC
Quote:
give his work the attention it deserves
Dylan only appealed to me when I was on drugs or booze, or both. When I sobered up, hes a bit laughable and his work is bleedin obvious. Maybe youre lack of understanding of the Americans is based upon a too literal interpretation of our actions and apparent mindsets.

For example, when I say that someone is " about half smart", Thats very high praise in our parlance. So you apparently dont "get" the American brand of nuanced language. We get Dylan and many of us arent so impressed with his "Pecos Bill" and "mind phuck" singing. Not to mention his adenoidal drone.

I suppose that any nation that really enjoys bagpipes would find something in Dylan.
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Mathos
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 06:20 am
[quote="spendius"]
I did used to fancy being American at one time but not any longer. The endemic assertivitis I see is not something I would fancy having these days and I can't really understand how you caught it. Maybe it's coming here. I put it down to Dewey's educational theories. All that child-centred crap was knocked out of me at an early age by priests, NCOs and English mill girls.

I don't know about my forefathers.

[quote][/quote]


Strange, why did I correctly assert that you had a desire, a yearning, a longing to be an American?

Can we naturally assert in view of your response that you have only recently become dis-gruntled with such a peculiar notion?

Why did you want to be American in the first place, did you like watching Yogi Bear for instance and have a strong yen to be a Park Ranger, or would you have felt spiritually closer to Robert Zimmerman had your roots been planted in Arkansas?


You surprise me not knowing about your forefathers too! Is this an I don't want to be associated with that lot scenario?

You do have a tendency to show your class conscious side on occasion Spendi!

Must say, I wholeheartedly agree with Farmer, re Robert Z though, there is some decent poetry there, I have no problem admiring his skills in that class. His stage settings, total lack of communication with the audience outside of his vocals, leads one to suspect he is a somewhat retarded bastard with a chip on his shoulder.

A haircut wouldn't go amiss either.

Catch you later, I'm busy right now and I'm signed up for at least a year to continue helping out at the B. Club.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 07:01 am
Opinion Essay on the new Intellectual Diversity Legislation in Missouri:

Quote:
Bad Medicine
(By Christopher Orlet, The American Spectator, 5/17/2007)

Few colleges and universities seem able to operate without at least one Vice President for Diversity and Equity whose responsibility is to ensure diversification in every facet of college life save opinions. Not only are conservative and Christian religious beliefs exempted, they are often targets of disdain in the intellectual equivalent of open season. This began to change when social work major Emily Brooker sued Missouri State University after she was pressed before an ethics committee accused of violating "diversity standards."

Her offense: Ms. Brooker had declined to participate in a classroom writing assignment asking legislators to support the right of gay couples to be foster parents. During her hearing before the ethics panel Ms. Brooker was asked: "Do you think gays and lesbians are sinners? Do you think I am a sinner?"

Missouri State University is located in Springfield, Missouri, the proverbial buckle of the Bible Belt. As headquarters of the Assemblies of God Church, one would expect the local campus to be overwhelmingly pro-Christian. But even here there is disdain for evangelical beliefs.

Indeed, the feeling is widespread. A San Francisco-based Institute for Jewish and Community Research survey found that 53 percent of its sample of 1,200 college and university faculty members said they have "unfavorable" feelings toward evangelical Christians. The institute had been gauging for anti-Semitic attitudes among faculty; instead, it found pro-Jewish sentiment and anti-evangelical attitudes. Mormons also came in for negative sentiments. And this number reflects only the professors willing to reveal their prejudice to pollsters -- professors who routinely denounce stereotyping, prejudice and hypocrisy -- so presumably the real figure could be much higher. The institute's director and chief pollster Gary A. Tobin told the Washington Post, "There is no question this is revealing bias and prejudice."

Much to the university's chagrin, Tobin went on to add: "If a majority of faculty said they did not feel warmly about Muslims or Jews or Latinos or African Americans, there would be an outcry. No one would attempt to justify or explain those feelings. No one would say, 'The reason they feel this way is because they don't like the politics of blacks or the politics of Jews.' That would be unthinkable."

An independent report, undertaken as part of the settlement of Brooker's lawsuit, found many social work majors fearful of expressing views that differed from their professors, especially on spiritual and religious matters. In fact "bullying" was used by both students and faculty to characterize specific faculty. It appears that faculty have no history of intellectual discussion/debate. Rather, differing opinions are taken personally and often result in inappropriate discourse.

Investigators concluded their report with a recommendation to temporarily shut down the School of Social Work, rid the school of "toxic faculty" and hire new staff.

But don't expect the professoriate to accept the report's conclusion. Instead, many academics justified the evidence of bias as a form of "political and cultural resistance," which is what southern rednecks would have called lynching had they gone in for euphemism.

This persistent bias has led to a campaign organized by conservative activist David Horowitz to promote intellectual diversity on campuses. The Missouri House is the first body to pass such legislation. Missouri's "Emily Brooker Intellectual Diversity Act" mandates requirements for balance in the curriculum and respect for intellectual diversity, in hiring, and in public speeches on the campus -- coupled with reporting requirements. Momentum is building. An Arizona Senate Bill would forbid school district employees from advocating "one side of a social, political, or cultural issue that is a matter of partisan controversy," or face a fine of up to $500. Some academics -- particularly science faculty -- worry that if they do not give equal time to creationism or intelligent design, they could face disciplinary action or worse.

Certainly one is tempted to say, what comes around goes around. If academics hadn't been so blatantly biased against Christians in the first place the issue never would have arisen. And if universities had allowed a multiplicity of viewpoints -- left and right -- to battle it out in the marketplace of ideas, the faculty at MSU School of Social Work would still have their cushy teaching posts. Apparently religious intolerance cometh before a fall.

Most of us, I suspect, have been there before. In college, I was sometimes reluctant to express my true opinions -- libertarian or conservative -- for fear of offending my ultraliberal professor who might then lower his or her opinion of me as well as my grade. Had there been conservative professors, I'm sure my liberal classmates would have felt the same, but of course there weren't any. When I would ask my right-wing elders why there were no conservative professors, inevitably I would be told, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach," or words to that effect. According to Horowitz, the real reason is far more sinister: liberal academics have conspired to keep conservatives and conservative voices out of the academy through discriminatory hiring practices.

Horowitz et al. are right to draw attention to the one-party system present on many of our campuses, but there is reason for optimism. Indeed, as universities and colleges increasingly operate like bottom-line oriented big businesses and less like elite pedagogic institutions with a mandate to develop the best young minds (in my opinion a far more serious problem confronting colleges) free market policies will inevitably come into play and a lot of liberal professors will find themselves back in the homeless shelters where they belong. I am all for the establishment taking back the universities, but don't let's do it by creating more laws and giving more power and money to college administrators and bureaucrats. That solution will only create more problems.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 08:54 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Her offense: Ms. Brooker had declined to participate in a classroom writing assignment asking legislators to support the right of gay couples to be foster parents. During her hearing before the ethics panel Ms. Brooker was asked: "Do you think gays and lesbians are sinners? Do you think I am a sinner?"


I would have declined too. I would also have declined to appear before the committee.

What on earth is a classroom writing assignment doing asking legislators to do anything. It's a ridiculous idea. They are sinners alright. They are sinning against education and their duty to the kids.

It strikes me that they have nothing to teach the kids and are going for the easist option known to lazy teachers.

It defies description. They've lost the plot goodstyle.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 09:41 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
. We get Dylan and many of us arent so impressed with his "Pecos Bill" and "mind phuck" singing. Not to mention his adenoidal drone.


Gee whiz! Paul Williams is an American.

But stay with those prejudices if you like.

Mathos wrote-

Quote:
Strange, why did I correctly assert that you had a desire, a yearning, a longing to be an American?


You didn't old bean. An admiration for America in my case has never tempted me to go there as you have. The admiration lessens by the day.And at an alarming rate.

I never wanted to be American. I don't know where you get an idea like that from. I did like Yogi though.

Quote:
You surprise me not knowing about your forefathers too! Is this an I don't want to be associated with that lot scenario?


I don't understand what you're talking about. They have nothing to do with me. What is there to associate with?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 09:59 am
Quote:
Gee whiz! Paul Williams is an American.


The onlyPaul Williams I know is a little elf who wrote"Just an Old Fashioned Lovesong" . Hes a real DB, IMHO
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 11:54 am
Hey- Bo Diddley's in hospital. Had a stroke. Played a concert through the early part it seems.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 01:04 pm
It's a nice enough song fm. Not great but nice.


But really- one can't expect an anti-IDer to appreciate Bob Dylan. In fact one would expect them to turn away from him.

The original anti-IDer is Julien de La Mettrie. Your only martyr. The guy who inspired de Sade so much and he had read everything.

La Mettrie claimed that the idea of the soul not derived from the senses is inconceivable and that the soul developed and decayed with the body. He thus made the two words synonymous and by doing so invented psychology, and psychoanalysis, which have now reached the materialist theory of mind stage.

He is said to have invented modern science as well with his No1 heresy that the object of science is the discovery of truth by evidence and experiment. He had to run for his life and was eventually killed by food poisoning in Fredrick the Great's court where he had been granted asylum because of his wit. And he is credited with inventing modern medicine with the idea that man is a machine and thus fixable. From little acorns....

He said that the dualism of Descartes and Liebnitz was unverifiable and therefore untenable. Both top of the range scientists.

So anyway-

It is obvious that an anti-IDer could not make head or tail of this-

Quote:
She lit a burner on the stove and offered me a pipe
"I thought you'd never say hello," she said
You look like the silent type".
Then she opened up a book of poems
And handed it to me
Written by an Italian poet From the thirteenth century.
And every one of them words rang true
And glowed like a burnin' coal
Pourin' off of every page
Like they were written in my soul from me to you.
Tangled up in blue.


No soul- nothing to write on. Which seems to me to mean no messages from the past and calls to mind the stolen post-office and the locked mail-box of Memphis Blues Again. Probably the Memphis of long ago.

What the media and Mummy and Daddy and their surrogates say is all you have to go on.

So one can see that an anti-IDer would turn away from that and also see why Mummy and Daddy might interfere in education to make sure only what they said has value and that nobody might put any funny ideas in the heads of the little monsters they are relying on to prove their genetic material is of the best grade. And Philip Larkin will put you in the picture on Mummy and Daddy if you Google This Be The Verse.

Mr Cash just tickles you under the chin. All assertion. The only ring of fire I ever saw was when the alsations jumped through a burning truck tyre at the Police shows. Still I don't eat hot curries so I might have missed the point.

Lok out kid- they keep it all hid.

So fm- you are right from your side and I am right from mine.

PS. Somebody told me that the only things in the hardware shops not made in China are china cups.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 01:11 pm
spendi, No, even those cups are made in China, and you must be very careful, because they have lead in them. Souvenir cups in many countries are produced in China. Even the ones found in London. That's the UK for your info.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 01:56 pm
They say lead slows down the brain. Perhaps I should take a few shots eh?
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Mathos
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 02:26 pm
I rather consider you have well overdosed on it!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 03:33 pm
spendi
Quote:
La Mettrie claimed that the idea of the soul not derived from the senses is inconceivable and that the soul developed and decayed with the body.
Do you needsome sort of spiritual "crutch" to get you by?
Quote:
one can't expect an anti-IDer to appreciate Bob Dylan. In fact one would expect them to turn away from him.
stupid assertion
Quote:
He had to run for his life and was eventually killed by food poisoning in Fredrick the Great's court where he had been granted asylum because of his wit.
He died of overeating , He was renowned for his gastranomic excesses. He too was a DB like PAul Williams and Dylan.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 04:02 pm
spendi, That's an idea not lost on one sect of buddhists in Japan. The founder of one sect drank lead poisoning to shorten his life, because he thought that no one should live past 60 (or so) years old to reach nervana.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 18 May, 2007 09:15 am
The news article below is only indirectly related to the intelligent design controversy. The story illustrates "viewpoint discrimination" allegations which have also been seen recently in the Missouri legislation affecting state colleges and the Christian schools lawsuit against University of California admissions practices.

Quote:
Noise Ordinance Targets Christian Evangelists, Says Legal Alliance
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 19 May, 2007 05:21 am
THis entire arena of "what constitutes speech"? is now being tested in the USSC , what with the recent decisions on "payed testimonials" for poltical campaigns. My guess is that we will now go into a period where the first Amendment will be tested all around. Ive always wondered why the Creationists never tried basing their arguments more on the second part of the Establishment clause, rather than merely living with the decisions that only stressed the first part. Maybe they need better lawyers who can reason in front of the USSC and get by things like the "Lemon test".
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Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 19 May, 2007 05:28 am
I think the problem with that argument, FM, is that the "free exercise" clause would simply leave them right where they are now--free to propagandize in public but neutral spaces (the SF thing Wandel linked looks like really idiotic decisions on the part of the city, which lead to cases i suspect they will lose in court), and free to say what they will in their churches and their homes.

It's not what their own children are taught that worries the leaders of such movements as intelligent design so much (although individual fervent believers duped by the hype might see a threat to their child's belief)--what matters to them is what everyone else's child is taught. They wish to maintain an environment of credulity. Since they can't outlaw evolution, they just want to "teach the controversy" (i.e., suggest there's a reasonable doubt where there clearly is not) because they want to maintain the credulity.

Therefore, they will always run afoul of the establishment clause, because the free exercise clause functions nicely already, thank you very much, to protect their right to fill their children's head with the most absurd propaganda in the home and in the church.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 19 May, 2007 05:46 am
I havent thought this out very well but thats sort of my point. If the "free exercise thereof" is infringed by what may be considered more and more Federal " nitpicking" , why not bite the bullet (Im talking as a Creationist now) , Ill accept my viewpoint as totally religious and then require its mention as a form of exemplary " Creed" in science class. Weve already broken the shell on that area of thinking by making certain accomodations to Ibn Sina's crap as an accomodation to Muslims
If we wish to keep our schools theology neutral, then we have to be consistent .
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 19 May, 2007 08:21 am
Why not?

Here's a brief glimpse of id. Not that giant strawman you have set up for you to spout against.

It's Park Honan writing about Matthew Arnold and his Empedocles on Etna-

Quote:
His prose is an adjunct to his best poetry--and especially to Empedocles on Etna --since in his social and literary essays he seeks a middle ground between the aridity of fact (or the world of scientific positivism which really destroys Empedocles) and the truths of religion and myth (or the world implicit in the songs of Callicles, the nightmare boy myth-maker) . Empedocles concerns the modern information explosion and makes a valid comment on our own age, while stating Wordsworth's earlier problem. In an age of facts and science, how can we keep thought and feeling in balance? How can we nourish the capacity to feel as well as our capacity to know? We may by sheer thought achieve great results, but what are they worth without the feeling which humanizes them?


The other stuff will never come to terms and it looks like it is designed not to.

This is a science forum. Not one for nitpicking lawyers going over some interpretation of an amendment's woolier phrases for ever and ever.

There's 300 million people out their. How is anti-ID proposing to nourish the feeling that humanizes them.

Is that the real question? It could be best policy to dehumanize them. Dehumanization is the constant theme in science fiction. Progress, even survival, might require it. Empedocles on Etna.

Bigger and better thrills require more progress.

The point is that real id is seeking a middle ground. It thinks that Fundamentalists and anti-IDers are both routes into the crater. Somebody once said when this thread was a newbie "a plague on both their houses".

He stalked off so I picked up the baton.
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