97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 08:49 am
Quote:
ISU prof appeals denial of tenure
(By LISA ROSSI, Des Moines Register, May 15, 2007)

An Iowa State University assistant professor who has triggered controversy for his promotion of intelligent design, a theory that disputes parts of evolution, is challenging a university decision to deny him tenure.

Guillermo Gonzalez, an ISU assistant physics and astronomy professor, last week appealed the denial of tenure to Iowa State University President Gregory Geoffroy.

University officials said the decision to deny Gonzalez tenure was not political. Supporters of Gonzalez said they think the university denied him tenure because he promoted an unpopular idea on college campuses, the theory that some features of life are best explained as products of an intelligent cause, rather than natural selection or random mutation.

"I think if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck," said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that supports discussing intelligent design in science classes. "There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment.

Gonzalez has gained national attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as a legitimate science in his book "The Privileged Planet."

Advocates of intelligent design said they distinguish themselves from those who believe in creationism, which they say starts with a religious text and tries to see how the findings of science can be reconciled to it. West said intelligent design scientists start with the empirical data of science and try to see what can be logically inferred from that evidence.

More than 400 faculty members at the University of Iowa, Iowa State and the University of Northern Iowa have signed petitions that reject attempts to represent intelligent design as science. None of the statements mentions Gonzalez by name.

Gonzalez is not the first ISU professor to be turned down for tenure, which essentially gives a faculty member a lifetime job at the university.

About 12 people have applied for tenure in the past 10 years in the physics and astronomy department, and four of those were denied, said Eli Rosenberg, the chairman of the ISU department of physics and astronomy.

John McCarroll, an ISU spokesman, said tenure is achieved through approval from the candidate's department, the department chairman, a committee within the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the executive vice president and provost, and the university president.

Gonzalez was denied a favorable vote on each of those levels, he said.

The decision on whether to award tenure is also based on the quality of the faculty member's work, the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community," Rosenberg said.

Gonzalez has said he does not teach intelligent design at ISU, nor is he an advocate of including intelligent design in public schools.

Gonzalez said in an interview Monday that he has worried since August 2005 about his chances for promotion.

At that time, ISU faculty members circulated a petition that rejected attempts to characterize intelligent design as science.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 08:54 am
wande wrote-

Quote:
spendi,

I would be unable to use any term to describe you. Sometimes I feel you have a disorder that defies classification (none of the diagnoses in medical books describe your problem).


As medical books cover every disorder known to man, and a few not yet presenting symptoms but demonstrating how to get them, it is reasonable to assume that I don't have a disorder.

Possibly disagreeing with you might be classed as a disorder. But then I could say that you have one in return. And you could say- "I haven't" and I could say "you have" and you could say "Oh no I haven't" and I could say "Oh yes you have" and meanwhile life goes on all around us. Try to see the point wande once and for all.

It ought to be easy to decide whether I'm a troll or not seeing as how ros provided a fairly comprehensive definition. Actually it is simply a term of abuse for those who have no answer to the points I make. As such it is meaningless and easy (the main consideration). It isn't dissimilar in both respects to when a schoolgirl pulls her tongue out and goes "mmmrhhhuuuuurh! ". When a grown man does it it's pathetic. And particularly when he says it to someone who wouldn't demean himself by stooping to such effeminate and ignorant tactics.

No wonder marital relations have all but broken down.
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 09:37 am
spendius wrote:
We are not interested in Pol bloody Pot. Or providing you with excuses to describe things which are better hidden from view. Wouldn't the Asia thread be a better place for you to engage in such things. Leadership is the "art of the possible" not simple minded brush strokes using generalisations so wide as to be meaningless.

We are discussing a civilised society and the education of future generations. I am well aware of how little influence we are likely to have as I'm sure the other participants in the discussion are and that applies to all the threads. On a concept such as America even high ranking politicians can only make minor adjustments and seek to move things gradually.

As you have no idea who is reading here or might do in the future your statement that "not one iota" of difference will result is entirely unjustified.


In view of it it is difficult to understand why you bother coming on. I have learned a great deal about certain things from my participation and I have also enjoyed it. I don't approve of nihilism. A culture is the sum total of all the actions taking place in it. Debate is an action wherever it takes place. It is a key component of the democratic process. I know your armchair dictatorial tendencies lead you to try to stifle debate but until you become Dictator yourself you are pissing in the wind.

Your argument applies to every thread where debate is taking place and thus it is a denigration of A2K and all its members and if I was a Mod I'd shut you down for it.

In terms of Total anti-ID everything is a waste of time and of no consequence. That's the main reason I oppose it. As I said last night- a nice illusion is better than bare-assed reality. Negativity is a total dead loss. It leads to depression, pessimism and defeat and you are not taking A2K members down that sick road without opposition from me.

So I don't rest assured on that and I'm not expecting any of the others to do so either.



Is there a Doctor in the house?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 10:22 am
In spendi's case, a doctor is not required. spendi is harmless, and his wayward opinions hurt no one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 12:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
A more important question is whether a teacher inappropriately discussing his/her religious beliefs in a classroom is somehow more sinister or traumatic to kids than a teacher inappropriately discussing his/her views about race or environment or traffic laws or war or the evils of oil company exploration or abortion or sexual orientation or marriage or global warming or visitations of little green men from Mars.


This was pretty damned silly. Of course no teacher should push racist views onto students. However, matters such as the environment, or traffic laws, or wars, or oil company exploration (whether or not described as "evil" would be a matter of individual circumstance), or abortion, or sexual orientation or marriage or global warming--can all be matters appropriate to the discussions which arise from certain topics being taught. Even racism itself would be a matter for appropriate discussion in certain contexts--it would only be a problem if it were reasonable to claim that a teacher were promoting a racist agenda.

It is quite reasonable to question why someone is promoting a particularist religious view in a course on geography, which does not remotely concern itself with theology.

Finally, i found your remark about teachers and "ID" particularly foolish. Any teacher who told his or her students that "intelligent design" does not exist might be denying that there are crackpots who believe in "intelligent design," which would be a lie and inappropriate. However, to tell students that there is no scientific basis for asserting that there were ever any evidence of "intelligent design" would simply be sound scientific education.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 01:25 pm
The Des Moines episode, so turgidly described, as if no attempt is required or possible to employ the English language with style or grace on the presumption that the reader has neither as well, is just another incident in the avalanche of trade, commerce, manufacture, physical science and mechanics which is gradually, and seemingly insensibly, sweeping us down to the valley floor from the majestic heights.

In principle, it is as different from the New Jersey incident as a pebble is different from a particle of dust.

It is an attack on the imaginative faculty, which, as we all know from Mr Armstrong is a concatenation of physico/chemico states of the brain, and its connection with education is indiscernible to the naked eye.

"You have many contacts out there among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination.."

Ballad of a Thin Man. Bob Dylan (1965 and just a kid.)

Mathos wrote-

Quote:
Is there a doctor in the house?


That is the authentic squawk of the philistine parrot addressing an audience which it cannot conceive of being composed of anything other than philistine parrots like itself.

It is a refreshing and pleasant surprise to hear one voice raised expressing a degree of mild dissent.

A fanous poet wrote on the death of William Wordsworth-

Quote:
He spoke, and loosed our hearts in tears.
He lay us as we lay at birth
On the cool flowery lap of earth,
Smiles broke from us and we had ease;
The hills were round us, and the breeze
Went o'er the sunlit fields again;
Our foreheads felt the wind and rain.
Our youth returned; for there was shed
On spirits that had long been dead,
Spirits dried up and closely furled,
The freshness of the early world.


That's harmless c.i.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 01:27 pm
Words have been known to kill, but in your case, it's harmless.
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:04 pm
The rate of deterioration is being exacerbated by poor Spendipussy being totally bamboozled after C I's question.


There will be moaning,wailing and gnashing of teeth!

But he will be ok when they fasten the jacket, tightly!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:19 pm
I am not in the least bamboozled.

And there won't be any wailing or gnashing of teeth. That is the lot of those who live by easy answers.

I try to apply a degree, such as I can muster, of intellectual principle to all my posts in the hope, probably vain, that the concept will arrive by an osmotic process and not require any caricature definitions which are soon forgotten.

There are two types of definition anyway. You'll find one in the dictionary which is designed to sell and thus will provide definitions of such words which allow readers to feel a little intellectual themselves. Like a Russian dictionary might define "democracy" in a somewhat different way that other sources might not.

And I did provide a reasonable answer earlier but I don't suppose you remember

You might look it up if you have a dictionary.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:24 pm
spendi, We, most of us anyways, are aware that you have a different set of definition for words. That is the reason we ask for "your" definition of words, so that we might better understand your ideas. Fair enough?
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
spendi, We, most of us anyways, are aware that you have a different set of definition for words. That is the reason we ask for "your" definition of words, so that we might better understand your ideas. Fair enough?



C I Must you rub it in?

He is a very sick man!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:49 pm
Mathos, spendi is not sick - mentally. It's just that his thinking is a bit skewered from "normal," but he's not a danger to himself or others. spendi adds some entertainment to a2k in his religous and political beliefs.
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 02:56 pm
spendius wrote:
We are not interested in Pol bloody Pot. Or providing you with excuses to describe things which are better hidden from view. Wouldn't the Asia thread be a better place for you to engage in such things. Leadership is the "art of the possible" not simple minded brush strokes using generalisations so wide as to be meaningless.

We are discussing a civilised society and the education of future generations. I am well aware of how little influence we are likely to have as I'm sure the other participants in the discussion are and that applies to all the threads. On a concept such as America even high ranking politicians can only make minor adjustments and seek to move things gradually.

As you have no idea who is reading here or might do in the future your statement that "not one iota" of difference will result is entirely unjustified.


In view of it it is difficult to understand why you bother coming on. I have learned a great deal about certain things from my participation and I have also enjoyed it. I don't approve of nihilism. A culture is the sum total of all the actions taking place in it. Debate is an action wherever it takes place. It is a key component of the democratic process. I know your armchair dictatorial tendencies lead you to try to stifle debate but until you become Dictator yourself you are pissing in the wind.

Your argument applies to every thread where debate is taking place and thus it is a denigration of A2K and all its members and if I was a Mod I'd shut you down for it.

In terms of Total anti-ID everything is a waste of time and of no consequence. That's the main reason I oppose it. As I said last night- a nice illusion is better than bare-assed reality. Negativity is a total dead loss. It leads to depression, pessimism and defeat and you are not taking A2K members down that sick road without opposition from me.

So I don't rest assured on that and I'm not expecting any of the others to do so either.



You don't control the thread, Mods or anything else in life, you stupid oink!

I shall defiantly give you an educational period on the Pol Pot era, it may help you understand, real AID, you are obviously having great difficulty in understanding much, if not all of which is said amongst these pages!


For Man's grim Justice goes it's way
And will not swerve aside
It slays the weak, it slays the strong
It has a deadly stride.

With iron heart it slays the weak
The monstrous parricide.

Oscar.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 03:33 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
spendi, We, most of us anyways, are aware that you have a different set of definition for words. That is the reason we ask for "your" definition of words, so that we might better understand your ideas. Fair enough?


Yes. Fair enough. But Hofstadter spent a few hundred pages on it ages ago. And he missed out the Epicure/Pagan side of it which is where the difficulty is. He left that to fiction writers who have been ploughing the ground since Homer's time.

Words have an open ended character, apart from scientific words of course. Intellectuals are not very popular I'm afraid. The French treat them more sympathetically that anyone else. It would be difficult to imagine a French writer coming out with a book about anti-intellectualism in France.

You stick to Oscar Mathos. I'll have WW anytime.
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2007 03:42 pm
Would that be [email protected]?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 02:36 am
I've no idea.

Words like that and oink and grim and slay and deadly and iron and monstrous and parricide and Pol Pot and sick and moaning and wailing and gnashing and Reading Goal are not commonly associated with the WW I referred to so I rather doubt it has any relevance to anything I had in mind.

What had you in mind?
0 Replies
 
Mathos
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 02:54 am
To be perfectly honest with you, I can't help but wonder if you are on the same planet at times.

I rather suspect our American colleagues on these pages, thank their god regularly that your forefathers never took it upon themselves to seek passage on The Mayflower. Do you wish you were an American Citizen Spendi?

You could be wandering, as lonely as a cloud, looking down on hosts of golden daffodils!

Which in any event are probably rape crop at this time of year, but you wouldn't know the difference from where you are, you do show several signs of inert confusion.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 04:01 am
It wouldn't enter my head to "wonder" what planet you are om my dear.
Or anyone else for that matter. You must have a lot of "wondering" room to fill up.

I did used to fancy being American at one time but not any longer. The endemic assertivitis I see is not something I would fancy having these days and I can't really understand how you caught it. Maybe it's coming here. I put it down to Dewey's educational theories. All that child-centred crap was knocked out of me at an early age by priests, NCOs and English mill girls.

I don't know about my forefathers.

Quote:
We are covered in blood, girl, you know our forefathers were slaves
Let us hope they've found mercy in their bone filled graves.


Precious Angel Bob Dylan

That's how I think of forefathers.

How on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that I can't tell the difference between fields of rape plants and hosts of daffodils. That assertivitis is getting your head all screwed up. Big time.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 04:59 am
just had some cooked mustard greens (rape) in a nice vinegar butter sauce for supper last e'en. Quite a nice peasant meal that satifies my hunter gatherer instinctual lizrd brain side of me, Served with a side of broiled brookies was a nice spring meal indeed.


Quote:
i can see em all now just a gatherin round
at mamas supper table as the sun goes down
an my dear ole pappy as the blessin is said
fillin up his plate with black eyed peas
an side meat
An all that other stuff
and a great big hunk o my dear sweet Mamas hot buttered corn bread


Since everybody's quoting songwriters of dubious talents , I add my own favorite-Johny Cash
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2007 05:41 am
Did you see that scene in Hearts of Fire when Billy Parker asks James Colt about his old Johnny Cash records?

It isn't who said it fm. It's what is said and how that counts. And what it opens for you. I'm not starstruck.

You can't compare the Cash quote to the Dylan and the Wordsworth quotes. They have a timelessness about them. Even the Wilde quote satisfies that condition. They apply to the human condition in all times and places.

Mr Cash loved Dylan. There's a Dutch album called Dylan Cash Sessions on which they sing 10 songs together. I have some video of them doing Girl From the North Country and One Too Many Mornings.

JC is getting singing lessons.
0 Replies
 
 

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