Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

spendi, Please define "real education" for us?

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How to produce a happy and prosperous population (average IQ 100 and as many below as above) most efficiently.

A materialist would exclusively focus on "prosperous". Like being able to get flesh coloured Christs that glow in the dark for Christmas presents rather than plum puddings and kissing under the misteltoe.

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Now tell us how this population with be "happy and prosperous?" You're missing a whole book of details on how this is to be accomplished - efficiently.

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1. Where does the funds to educate this population come from?
2. Who feeds and shelters all these people?
3. What kind of "economy" would support this populatioin of people?
4. Where does the teachers come from?
5. Who administers the needs of the community? How and with what?

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Internet Trolls became found fertile ground to troll in the late 90's as Usenet Discussion groups began to emerge into the mainstream. Hard to believe it was only 10 years ago. Here's a couple of definitions and some background information for anyone who wasn't around at that time...

Quote:

v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll."

Quote:

Seen any trolls lately?

Remember, don't feed the trolls.

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Chumly-There was an evolution thread awhile back that, because of Rex Reds penchant for often " going postal" he caused it to be locked up. Since that time I rarely even address him unless its some thread that I just want to weigh in on. He has one now which is so bitter and a bit sicko that after I "weighed in" I just closed off any reminders.

Spendi is self absorbed, that is true, but he hasnt gone totally whackadoo like Rex Red. I kind of smile at spendis disjointed style , kinda like Kerouac. Hes all over the place like a butterfly in a shityard.(ypu have to be a farmer to know about butterflies and dung heps)

If Rex Red never ever addresses me personally, I dont think Id feel left out of missing anything important. Spendis pathology is a bit different, its more like glossolalia , fun to hear but nonsense nonetheless.

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Just a note to ya'll:

I believe after only ten years of indoctrination I have become a New Yorker. That is my present condition and the reason I used the word 'boondocks' in referring to a place outside the island of Manhattan because, as anyone residing on the island will tell you, everywhere else IS the boondocks.

Yes, it is a self centered, self serving, short-sighted view of the world and if I wasn't a New Yorker I'd be ashamed of myself for expressing it.

As it is, there it is.

Joe(whatever)Nation

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Yeh, Ive seen those maps of the US produced from a NOOYAWKA'S POV.
On the Est of Newyaek is EWurope, to the direct south is newjersey and Florida, to te WEst-is California and to the North is CAnadia.

farmer(ey whadjooloogin ad as swipe?) man

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Hey farmerman,
Thanks for the post, now it all makes more sense, at least as far as these types of circumstances and their attendant peculiar posters can ever be said to make sense! I've have not read any of Rex Red's threads or posts for quite some time now.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I have to believe inappropriate religious discussions are confined to a very few individuals and are quite rare. The unusually prominent amount of press inappropriate incidents receive testifies to the obsession with such incidents, but I believe this to be a far less frequent problem than some would seem to think.

I have to admit, I don't know what the statistics are on the frequency of events like that.

Like you, I went all the way through school without any overt concern about religion being pushed on me by my teachers. I DID feel annoyed with the "Under God" part of the Pledge of Allegience, and I DID feel annoyed with 'a moment of silence' which some teachers would slip and call 'a moment of prayer' (and then correct themselves, ahem, 'a moment of silence'). But over all, I don't remember any grevious invasions of my freedom to choose non-religion.

What struck me about the event in the article was how unexpected it was in geography. It made me wonder just how many times things like this DO happen and no student has a tape recorder on. This kid happened to tape the event, otherwise it probably would have remained hidden, along with his persecution from the other kids.

At this point, I wonder just how much of this really IS happening and not being reported. Maybe it isn't much. Maybe the media is hyping this and it's just a rare event. But maybe not. I don't know. But with several school boards in several states attempting to push ID and Creationism into science classes, and with other states approving warning stickers on biology books and other similar events, it stands to reason that events like in the article are probably more frequent than we know about.

A more important question is whether a teacher inappropriately discussing his/her religious beliefs in a classroom is somehow more sinister or traumatic to kids than a teacher inappropriately discussing his/her views about race or environment or traffic laws or war or the evils of oil company exploration or abortion or sexual orientation or marriage or global warming or visitations of little green men from Mars.

If the policy in the school system is that teachers will focus on exposing students to as much of the basics of language, literature, the arts, math, science, history, etc. as possible, the kids will be educated.

If class time is taken up on the teacher's views of all those other things, the kids will be indoctrinated with the teacher's opinions.

Religion is only one of many many concepts subject to inappropriate emphasis.

Again, my whole purpose for wading into this particular thread was to agree that ID should not be taught as science in any school, much less public school. But neither should any science teacher presume to tell his/her students that ID does not exist.

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farmerman wrote:

Spendi is self absorbed, that is true, but he hasnt gone totally whackadoo like Rex Red. I kind of smile at spendis disjointed style , kinda like Kerouac. Hes all over the place like a butterfly in a shityard.(ypu have to be a farmer to know about butterflies and dung heps)

This is obviously becoming far too profound!

Poor Spendipus, he's not well and you 'American Gentlemen' are baiting, tormenting, and vilifying the fool as if he's one of your detainees in Abu Ghraib or that suspect Naval Base in Cuba!

Don't you realise, if he cracks up all together, a village in Yorkshire will be totally minus it's idiot?

Now I appreciate you are only showing Spendipus the merits of American AID, but a line in the sand has to be drawn, I consider,( both as a humanist and a tax payer whose load will be increased if the fool is taken into one of our psychiatric National Health Departments) you are under obligation to reduce this mental aggravation, harassment and persecution of such a gullible and defenceless old sot.

In your quote above Farmer, I note you omitted to enter the word 'Yet!' after whackadoo!

That's an admission of guilt in my book! Shocked

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wande-

Do you consider me to be a troll?

I must admit though that I do sometimes feel like a butterfly in a shityard. A Wild Indigo Dusky Wing.

I was brought up among farmers. Nothing but farms in view in all directions. Like Veblen.

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c.i. (don't feed the troll) wrote-

Quote:

1. Where does the funds to educate this population come from?
2. Who feeds and shelters all these people?
3. What kind of "economy" would support this populatioin of people?
4. Where does the teachers come from?
5. Who administers the needs of the community? How and with what?

All those tasks are ongoing. It is a question of touches on the rudder. Nothing dramatic. Dramatic changes to institutions of gigantic complexity are off the agenda.

I gather you have about 50 million children in public schools and about 6 million in private schools. With a guessed at class size of 30 that would require about 1.7 million teachers to be in place now. Such a figure coupled with the salary rate and the traditionally low esteem in which teachers are held in the US (see Hofstadter) practically guarantees a lower standard of teaching than one might expect for an advanced society.

It is a question of priorities and political choice.

What Foxy describes in her last post is inevitable within the intimate contact of a classroom. Teachers are going to express in one way or another, often with unrecordable gestures, their own views on life in general. It would be inhuman if that were not to happen. It is a given and has to be accepted. Any seriously inappropriate views ought to be eliminated at the teacher recruitment and training level.

Any focus on one incident is entirely inappropriate and irresponsible because it can be used by opportunists to denigrate the whole system for propaganda reasons. That is specious.

One might do better to look at the media in such cases. They are going to happen just like motor accidents are going to happen on even the best designed roads and corrupt policemen are going to happen.

Such things, whilst regrettable, say very little about the totalities of the educational system, traffic management or law and order procedures.

But media is only feeding an appetite for drama, controversy and disaster.

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spendius wrote:

wande-

Do you consider me to be a troll?

I must admit though that I do sometimes feel like a butterfly in a shityard. A Wild Indigo Dusky Wing.

I was brought up among farmers. Nothing but farms in view in all directions. Like Veblen.

Have you the remotest inclination Spendi, as to how ridiculous your meanderings are becoming?

True AID if you want it in a nutshell can be compared to the short but extremely brutal murderous episode following the war in Vietnam and the Cambodian peoples genocide and suffering.

In 1960 Tou Samouth a monk turned Communist was named as party secretary to the Khmer Isarak movement, he disappeared mysteriously in 1962, a Phnom Penh schoolteacher (Pol Pot) then took over the responsibilities of the clandestine party.

Shortly afterwards, Pol Pot along with his brother in law Ieng Sary, Son Sen and others fled to the jungle.

It would be 1970 before they were ever heard of again.

If I have the time this week I will explain AID to you using this period of time as the most perfect of examples.

As it is Spendi, the whole scenario you are getting so screwed up about is a formality on here, a simple game, its fun. There will be numerous other forums holding discussion on the subject, probably in the thousands.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, you, me, Wandi, CI, Farmer or others put into print on this forum will make a single iota of difference to the affairs of America.

Rest assured on that!

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Something else in that article was interesting...

wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Parents and District Settle Dispute on Teacher's Religious Remarks
(By TINA KELLEY, New York Times, May 10, 2007)

In the fall, the board reprimanded the teacher and later adopted a policy barring students from taping in class without a teacher's permission.

Shouldn't they require taping of classes instead of barring it?

It's a public school classroom, shouldn't parents and public be able to know what is said in public classrooms?

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rosborne979 wrote:

Something else in that article was interesting...

wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Parents and District Settle Dispute on Teacher's Religious Remarks
(By TINA KELLEY, New York Times, May 10, 2007)

In the fall, the board reprimanded the teacher and later adopted a policy barring students from taping in class without a teacher's permission.

Shouldn't they require taping of classes instead of barring it?

It's a public school classroom, shouldn't parents and public be able to know what is said in public classrooms?

I certainly think modern technology makes taping possible and can be quite practical lieu of taking notes. A wise teacher would also use sufficient graphical illustrations so that the students would have to learn how to take written notes as well as just taping a lecture.

Taping for the purpose of 'getting somebody' however could have a chilling effect on classroom discussion not only on the part of the teacher but also for the students too. But maybe it would cut down on some of the most objectionable indoctrination going on in the classroom and the major bulk of that has nothing to do with religion. I listen to a lot of talk radio while driving to appointments during the day, and when young people call into to complain about something an unscrupulous teacher is feeding the class, the talk show host encourages the student to tape the teacher and send the talk show host the tape. But do we really want this to become common place?

Get the teachers back to the basics of educating kids in real subjects and I think all these issues will largly go away including any problems with ID in science class.

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We are not interested in Pol bloody Pot. Or providing you with excuses to describe things which are better hidden from view. Wouldn't the Asia thread be a better place for you to engage in such things. Leadership is the "art of the possible" not simple minded brush strokes using generalisations so wide as to be meaningless.

We are discussing a civilised society and the education of future generations. I am well aware of how little influence we are likely to have as I'm sure the other participants in the discussion are and that applies to all the threads. On a concept such as America even high ranking politicians can only make minor adjustments and seek to move things gradually.

As you have no idea who is reading here or might do in the future your statement that "not one iota" of difference will result is entirely unjustified.

In view of it it is difficult to understand why you bother coming on. I have learned a great deal about certain things from my participation and I have also enjoyed it. I don't approve of nihilism. A culture is the sum total of all the actions taking place in it. Debate is an action wherever it takes place. It is a key component of the democratic process. I know your armchair dictatorial tendencies lead you to try to stifle debate but until you become Dictator yourself you are pissing in the wind.

Your argument applies to every thread where debate is taking place and thus it is a denigration of A2K and all its members and if I was a Mod I'd shut you down for it.

In terms of Total anti-ID everything is a waste of time and of no consequence. That's the main reason I oppose it. As I said last night- a nice illusion is better than bare-assed reality. Negativity is a total dead loss. It leads to depression, pessimism and defeat and you are not taking A2K members down that sick road without opposition from me.

So I don't rest assured on that and I'm not expecting any of the others to do so either.

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And I seriously pulled my punches with that.

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spendius wrote:

wande-

Do you consider me to be a troll?

I must admit though that I do sometimes feel like a butterfly in a shityard. A Wild Indigo Dusky Wing.

I was brought up among farmers. Nothing but farms in view in all directions. Like Veblen.

spendi,

I would be unable to use any term to describe you. Sometimes I feel you have a disorder that defies classification (none of the diagnoses in medical books describe your problem).

However, my role on this thread is simply to encourage discussion. Your environment gives you a unique perspective. I invite all perspectives on this thread.

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ros wrote-

Quote:

It's a public school classroom, shouldn't parents and public be able to know what is said in public classrooms?

No. What a ridiculous idea. Have you never heard of loco parentis?

Father Wiseman, my headmaster, wouldn't allow parents on the school premises. Not even for sports apart from the annual sport's day when they were expected to applaud the medallists.

Parents and public should be kept well away from classrooms. If your recruitment procedures are not properly organised you should look into that.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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