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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 02:42 pm
I know Im gonna hate myself later but spendi, what the hell are you even connecting with here?
Then the little John Dean scream at the end was a nice touch.
Quote:
Vico practically invented science and La Mettrie and de Sade were both full-baked anti-IDers. The former kept quiet about it more or less, only having to flee for his life twice, and the latter let it all hang out and favouring a return to Pagan rites. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeheeeehe!!!!!!!
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 03:32 pm
Ponder fm.

I rather liked Mr Dean actually. I thought he was quite witty.

Where is he now?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 08:35 pm
John Dean - of Watergate fame - currently is maintaining his Cocktail & Canape Circuit eligibiliy through flogging the latest of his 7 books wherever he can find a willing co-conspirator; look for him on a talk show near you, consult local listings for time and date.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 05:34 am
oops, I meant Howard Dean of DNC fame. All these Deans look alike to me.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 09:07 am
I was referring to the Watergate victim too.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 09:56 am
Darwin told Richard Owen that he was -"inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws."

Desmond and Moore say that he meant- " that God had appointed natural laws to evolve life rather than intervene himself; but Owen, seizing on 'designed laws,' presumed that they shared common ideological ground, both believing in an immediate 'Creative Power.' "

And Darwin said- "he goes at the bottom of his hidden soul as far as I do! "

The idea of design necessitates intelligence and hence they were conversing about nothing other than intelligent design. (A tautology). Not Intelligent Design as a label for a movement.

But the idea of design does not necessitate perfect intelligence. The designer could very well be on a learning curve like the watchmaker who made the famous watch might well have had a long train of useless watches before he arrived at the one that was supposedly found on the beach.

On the social consequences side the retention of the notion that there is a designer may be necessary for our long term future set against the notion that everything is meaningless and thus futile, this debate being included, or simply in the service of a selfish interest in the here and now which has obviously no concern for any future except its own despite protestations to the contrary used as strategy.

That's the tough choice the USSC might have to make and going against a "design" means its own deliberations are as futile as everything else.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 05:29 am
Chopping and splitting wood again, so I missed your post yesterday spendi.I have to renew our stores of firewood so that we can keep some of our more distant rooms warm until we are utterly forced by January to engage the "Zone" pumps for these areas.

spendi
Quote:
Darwin told Richard Owen that he was -"inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws."


Im not familiar with this quote, but assuming Darwin had said it (and he rarely had been noted to speak with Richard Owen except in the presence of throngs of others, they were , aafter all almost bitter rvals and Owen was transparently jealous of Darwins notoriety). As far as this quote,I would imagine that Darwin would have had to say this in the early post-Beagle days. Darwin , until the 1840's , really didnt fully understand the magnitude of the power of his very evidence.(He didnt even know the bulk of his Galapogos birds were all finches until John Gould told him) While Darwin was originally an avowed "Paley believer" gradually his data and the power of his evidence had convinced him that the archetypists , such as Owen and even Huxley, were wrong. The anatomists , like OWen wished to project species stability in their deliberations and were confident about how archetypes ruled any change. It would be difficult for them to imagine how a hoofed animal could serve as the evolutionary archetype for a whale.

Later in Darwins life he stated about Owen that."the fact that God was continually correcting his own mistakes, removing some species and creating others, when he could have gotten it done correctly in the first place, paints an unflattering picture of the intelliegnce behind "Creation"

Owen, clearly a jealous individual, and decidedly so in the place of DArwin, stated , as one eulogizing Darwin,Biology is still seeking its Newton, With Mr Darwin we have, at best, found a LaPlace"[quote]But the idea of design does not necessitate perfect intelligence. The designer could very well be on a learning curve like the watchmaker who made the famous watch might well have had a long train of useless watches before he arrived at the one that was supposedly found on the beach.
[/quote]. This is an argument much employed latelyby the IDesr. It has taken so much sizing from your arguments sails that you may as well just collapse the movement and move on with what science has been saying all along.
The driver is environment and an innate drive for intra species reproductive success that unless the ID source were in control of the weather, the edaphic factors of the planet and all its tectonic imponderables, then we are left with investigating the species reactions to environmental changes,

"That only leaves us with extinction or evolutions response to external changes"
Raup said that. along with
"nature doesnt get mad, nature gets even, Nature always bats last"

I dont recall any of the early "reverend Naturalists" using a term of ID , but had referred to the Presumed intelligence BEHIND the product lying on te HEath.

[quote]That's the tough choice the USSC might have to make and going against a "design" means its own deliberations are as futile as everything else.[/quote]

Youdo undesrtand that the Constitution is a design, its a plat that had been worked out by common men, who, observing the plats of other governments then available to them, wanted to learn from their mistakes. The USSC is guided by the Constitution as its "Standards of Practise". Of course we dont always get it right but , like evolutions product, our own laws will develop some new "appendage" , based upon modifications of an existing precedent. Our laws will do what Miller says about evolution
"well do something new with what weve already got in place".
So there is some parallel there.

PS good contribution spendi, there was content and context, and you really made your point. Course I dont buy the implied precept that ID supplies "meaning" and "direction".
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 01:36 pm
fm-

The quote is from More Letters of Charles Darwin; 2 vols, 1903 (Murray) edited by Francis Darwin (son) and A.c. Seward.

It dates from about 1858 and is to do with the frenzied discussions after Origins was published.

Darwin was fairly friendly with Owen by all accounts although things did take a turn for the worse later.

Quote:
. This is an argument much employed latelyby the IDesr. It has taken so much sizing from your arguments sails that you may as well just collapse the movement and move on with what science has been saying all along.


I am content with that for my own sake. I just don't think society is. I'm not sure we ought to bite the hand that feeds us. I'm more for gentle nibblings with the odd nip now and again.

Quote:
The driver is environment and an innate drive for intra species reproductive success that unless the ID source were in control of the weather, the edaphic factors of the planet and all its tectonic imponderables, then we are left with investigating the species reactions to environmental changes,


Yes I know but such a position has effects and imagining a controlling intelligence has other effects. Pursuing the former to wherever the fancy leads is not something that I think will go down too well with the matrons.

There is a feeling, not too well articulated, that Nature will bat science out of court.

In the famous meeting at Oxford Soapy Sam asked Huxley whether his grandfather or his grandmother was an ape. This was considered very bad taste and one lady of renown reportedly fainted although we don't know if she feigned it. He might have come closer than the grandparents.

Obviously the Bishop set himself up and Huxley was not slow to let him know as one might expect.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 05:30 pm
Bad taste? never. The Victorians were likely to skewer rather than answer directly. Huxley and Wilberforce were meant for each other, with Wilberforce the unintentional straight -man.Finally, When the good Bishop fell off a horse and broke his skull and died, Huxley, when asked for a statement said that
"This was one of the few times that the Bishop's head and the hard truth ever came into contact"

Ive got the Darwins letters that you mentioned, so I shall look em up and try to see the context. I agree, Darwin originally admired Owen and Sedgewick(You probably know that Darwins preferred method of communication was by correspondence rather than personal contact because he was severely hypochondriacal.). However After darwin had arrabged for the publication of the "Origin..." a year later after your quote, the tone of Owens comments about Darwin became much more captious as he (Owen) was trained in the fixed rules of anatomy and the concept of archetypal variants ruled his thinking. To take up gradualism was impossible for him , (just as it was for Huxley, who, to his death always was a favored follower of saltation rather than gradualism)
In my generation the concept of Continental Drift required the rules of structure to be radically changed. Many of the older teachers and exploration geologists retired rather than taking up an entire new basis of analysis. Sometimes a seachange in scientific thought requires a greater deal of expended effor by the professionals than the interested public.
Quote:
There is a feeling, not too well articulated, that Nature will bat science out of court.
Raups quotes are decidedly more for taking shots at "pseudo-science". He recognized, that by studying extinction as the left over record of lifes experiments, statistics seemes just as important as theory.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:12 pm
from www.geotimes.org Nov 2006 edition
Quote:
Priest resigns amid evolution talk
Amid the sunshine and cacti that grace the grounds of the University of Arizona in Tucson, stands an office where about half a dozen astronomers puzzle over the universe?s unknowns. The astronomers are Jesuits; they make up the Vatican Observatory Research Group. The group is in a period of change, however, as George Coyne has resigned from his position as director of the Vatican Observatory.

Astronomer-priest George Coyne recently resigned as director of the Vatican Observatory, after 25 years in the position. Photograph is courtesy of George Coyne.

With the news of Coyne?s resignation came speculation that he was pressured by the Roman Catholic Church to resign, as Coyne had become an increasingly outspoken opponent of intelligent design (ID), which holds that the complexity of life is itself evidence that something intelligent must have designed it. ?There were some people in high places ? some cardinals and [others] ? that from a political point of view didn?t like some of the things [Coyne] did,? says William Stoeger, a Jesuit astronomer with the Vatican Observatory.

On Jan. 31, Coyne gave a speech at Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Fla., titled ?Science Does Not Need a God. Or Does It?? Part of Coyne?s speech focused on a July 27, 2005, op-ed story that appeared in The New York Times. Written by Cardinal Schönborn, who had previously studied theology under the current pope, the op-ed appeared to some to support ID and ?generated a certain amount of objection from a number of people,? Stoeger says. In his speech, Coyne cited five ?errors? in Schönborn?s story. He countered the errors with statements such as, ?the apparent directionality seen by science in the evolutionary process does not require a designer,? and ?intelligent design is not science,? according to a partial transcript from the National Center for Science Education.

That Coyne had been ?forced out? of his directorship position for voicing such thoughts, however, is ?simply not true,? Stoeger says. The main reason Coyne resigned was that he is nearly 74 years old, and had been director of the Vatican Observatory for almost 28 years, Stoeger says. ?For a long time, he and other people had felt that there was a need for somebody new to take over.? Coyne, although no longer director, will continue at the observatory as a staff member when he returns from a year-long sabbatical at a parish in Raleigh, N.C.

Filling the observatory?s directorship position since August has been Jose Funes, who was previously on the Vatican Observatory?s staff. Funes most likely will not engage immediately in the science and theology dialogue as Coyne had, Stoeger says.

Still, Stoeger says that he and others at the observatory will continue to engage the science and theology discussions. And while Stoeger calls it ?unfortunate? that Schönborn confused a philosophical interpretation of evolution with evolution itself, the cardinal?s comments do not reflect official church teaching. Stoeger says that bishops who he has spoken with say that ID completely misses the point and call it ?bad theology.?

Instead, the church?s official teaching still reflects a 1996 statement to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences by Pope John Paul II that evolution is ?more than a hypothesis,? Stoeger says. ?I think that it?s very clear that Catholic theology, as well as other areas of nonfundamentalist Christian theology, are making every effort to connect with the sciences because they realize the sciences are one of the key ? but not the only ? channels to the truth? (see story, this issue).

Exactly how the current pope views evolution, however, remains uncertain. In 2004, Pope Benedict XVI (then Cardinal Ratzinger) reportedly supported the notion of species change via evolution, but his writings indicated concern that the theory denies the role of God. The pope has since called the creation of the universe an ?intelligent project,? according to a Sept. 1 The New York Times story.

Evolution was the subject of Pope Benedict?s annual weekend seminar with students in early September. A summary of conclusions from the meeting might be published within a year, Stoeger says.

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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:16 pm
Now that is what I call a proper gentlemanly way of debating these highly important matters.

One does have to consider that science, as well as history, which I have been told is science, been assured even, can only show Nature/evolution/ Man as he is or as he pretends to be and cannot show Nature/evolution/Man as he could be and the possibilities therein and is thus sterile and concluded.

Soapy Sam rides again.

I once owned a business supplying half the county with firewood. Don't talk to me about chopping wood up. I'm an expert at that. Choose the straightest grains is my advice. Or get a smaller house. After all a house is nothing but a device to prevent all the papers blowing away.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:26 pm
I have a 30 Ton log splitter with a double hydraulic actuator blade. It operates off a 100 hp PTO on the tractor. The hard part is rolling the logs to the splitter.
Im pooped from 2 days of splitting even with the help of hydraulics.

Wood warms you twice, once when you cut it, and again when you burn it.

We like the fireplaces and woodstoves in the ends of the "rabbit warren" that is the sty;le of the old PA farmhouses. These houses were built and added on by stages , so by the time it was done, there are rooms way out of earshot from the kitchen.
Quote:
show Nature/evolution/ Man as he is or as he pretends to be and cannot show Nature/evolution/Man as he could be and the possibilities therein and is thus sterile and concluded.
Sterile?,How so?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:50 pm
Tomorrow night

Will you say the lovely things you said tonight.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 07:00 pm
If you stay on topic , we can disagree like gentlemen , not like Huxley and Wilberforce.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:51 pm
Sounds like a nice logsplitter, fm - I'm jealous; mine's only a 20 ton ... runs off its own 6 Horse Honda engine, burns about a half gallon an hour when its working hard. Handy little puppy - small enough to tow behind an ATV or garden tractor, but legal to tow on the highway, too. I paid extra for the electric start option, never have used the damned thing anywhere near an electric outlet, though Rolling Eyes
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 12:22 am
In our house most places are out of earshot, even when I have my hearing aid in.
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Mathos
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 04:43 am
Well I never, Farmer and Timber are giving me a complex now!

All this fancy equipment!


Poor Mathos has to be content with a giant oak chopping stump, a splitting axe, a couple of wedges and a sledgehammer. That old senile dog of mine comes out when she hears me swinging, thinks its a game when the logs fly about and starts rounding them up like an excited kid, she forgets about her arthritis too.


Mind you, I have recently finished logging up from three very old apple bearing trees I took down about two years ago. The aroma from their logs burning slowly on the fire is beautiful. I also had a good selection of railway sleepers which had obviously been regularly treated over the many years they carried track, they burn superb, slowly, nice flame and plenty of heat.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 04:55 am
Always nice to see bonding among such a diverse group.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 05:00 am
There is something satisfying about finishing log splitting. I drove the tractor all over looking for the errant tree fall so I could keep splitting till I puked. Timber i had one of the tow along kinds , but discovered that, with a pickup, I couldnt see the damn thing behind me and I never learned to back up to where I wanted it. So I got one that connects to the three point hitch and runs on the tractor hydraulics. Nothin gets away from the Logarator. I probably cut and split about 4 cords in the last 3 days and it wasnt so hard when I finally learned that driving as close to the log pile is the way to go. Now all I have to do is drive around and look for my piles of wood before any snow covers them.
Happy Thanksgiving all, weve been lent a friends beach house in Rehoboth Del for the weekend and well probably go down tomorrow. Ill take my laptop and see if I cant get some writing done.
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Mathos
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 05:21 am
All the best to you Yanks for your 'Thanksgiving Day' have a nice one.
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