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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Oct, 2006 08:54 pm
were you smoking or mainlining?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 15 Oct, 2006 06:57 am
Presumptions, assertions, insults, bluster, smears, playground cliche, downright ignorance, underestimation and meaningless. (In 5 words too.)

No originality and no style and obviously no answers.

Even if I had been smoking or mainlining what difference does it make to the text of a post? That stands on its own however arrived at.

Mr Grant said there is a "void left by the secularization of the education system." I didn't quote him I just agreed with him and justified it as discreetly as I could.

Why not answer Mr Grant or had he been popped up as well. Is everybody popped up who disagrees with fm.

What a cute way of proceeding.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 15 Oct, 2006 02:59 pm
Quote:
(In 5 words too.)
. Unlike you, I can say little in very few words
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 08:40 am
RICHARD DAWKINS VISITS KANSAS

Quote:
Physicist takes shots at intelligent design
(By Ron Knox, Lawrence Journal-World, October 17, 2006)

Richard Dawkins feels sympathy for science teachers in Kansas.

"I know you here are in the front-line trench against powerful forces of darkness," Dawkins told a more-than-full audience at Kansas University's Lied Center Monday night. "I salute the science teachers of Kansas. Fight the good fight."

The good fight, Dawkins said, was one in favor of the science of evolution rather than the "rotten logic" of intelligent design and creationism, he said.
The award-winning Oxford University theoretical physicist talked on "The God Delusion" at the Lied Center as part of the KU Hall Center's Humanities Lecture Series.

While the evolution debate has quieted since a majority of pro-intelligent design Kansas Board of Education members were voted out in this year's primary elections, Dawkins still stressed the importance of not buying the logic behind the design theory.

Design proponents, Dawkins said, believe that any flaw in evolution theory means that biological design by a higher power must be the answer.

That, he said, is flatly not true.

"I.D. is granted immunity from the rigorous standards of science," he said.
Those gaps in theories are what scientists fill with research, with their lives' work. It's also what creationists and intelligent design proponents fill with a divine being.

"If you don't understand something, forget it," Dawkins said. "Just say God did it. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away."

But Dawkins said that he and scientists wouldn't abide that reasoning, and that despite quick, pro-intelligent design flare-ups like this recent squabble in Kansas, he still would fight the good fight.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 09:10 am
Dawkins is a theoretical physicist? I thought he was a zoologist.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 09:26 am
Thomas,

Dawkins was a professor of zoology in the past. His current position at Oxford University is different, however. (In my opinion, his current lecturing activities at Oxford seem to involve the philosophy and history of science.)
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 09:58 am
Partial CV, Dawkins, Clinton Richard: MA, D.Sc. (Oxon), FRS, FRSL, HD.Litt. (Saint Andrews), HD.Litt. (Australian National University, Canberra), HD.Sc. (Westminster), HD.Sc. (Hull), Charles Simonyi Chair in the Public Understanding of Science, University of Oxford (Hull), Fellow, University Museum of Natural History, Oxford, Fellow, Fellow New College (Oxon)

Honors (Partial List):

  • 1987 Royal Society of Literature Award for The Blind Watchmaker
  • 1987 Los Angeles Times Literary Prize, for The Blind Watchmaker
  • 1987 Sci.Tech Prize for Best Television Documentary Science Programmme of the Year, for BBC Horizon Programme: The Blind Watchmaker
  • 1988 Honorary Fellowship, Regent's College, London
  • 1989 Zoological Society of London Silver Medal
  • 1990 Royal Society of London, Michael Faraday Award
  • 1994 Nakayama Prize for Achievement in Human Science
  • 1995 Honorary Doctor of Letters, St Andrews University
  • 1996 Honorary Doctor of Letters, Australian National University, Canberra
  • 1996 Humanist of the Year Award
  • 1996 Vice-President of the British Humanist Association
  • 1997 Elected Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature
  • 1997 International Cosmos Prize, Osaka, Japan.
  • 1997 Hon. D.Sc. University of Westminster
  • 2001 Elected Fellow of the Royal Society


Major Publications:

  • The Selfish Gene (1976; second edition 1989) ISBN 0192860925
  • The Extended Phenotype (1982; revised edition 1999) ISBN 0192880519
  • The Blind Watchmaker (1986; reissued 1996; second edition 2006) ISBN 0393315703
  • River Out of Eden (1995; reprint edition 1996) ISBN 0465069908 ; Audio (2000) ISBN 0752839853
  • Climbing Mount Improbable (1997) ISBN 0393316823
  • Unweaving the Rainbow (1998) ISBN 0618056734
  • A Devil's Chaplain (2003; collection of earlier essays) ISBN 0618335404
  • The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life (2004) ISBN 0618005838 ; Audio (2005) ISBN 0752873210
  • The God Delusion (2006) ISBN 0618680004


Has written and published numerous papers, essays, articles, commentaries, and reviews in both academic and general press, author of several award-winning television documentaries; frequent lecturor and speaker, has been cited thousands of times in textbooks, dissertations, studies, essays, articles, commentaries, and reviews.




The boy's got some chops.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 10:48 am
wande quoted the rabble rouser-

Quote:
Dawkins still stressed the importance of not buying the logic behind the design theory.


There is no logic to design theory. It has possibilities of interpretation which depend on the motives of those using it.

Remove it and we are left naked with the severe logic of evolution science which has no possibilities of interpretation.

Why does Dawkins never speak on the logic of evolution theory. Why is he always negative about the other side and never positive about his own?

Is the Marquis de Sade to be castigated because he was positive about that?

What logic does Dawkins want us to have. We can't have none. That's about the only possibility that doesn't exist given, and it is a given, that humans have an insatiable curiosity about origins and destinations.

He plays on ignorance and pretends it hasn't been thrashed out years ago by better men than he is.

Quote:
Design proponents, Dawkins said, believe that any flaw in evolution theory means that biological design by a higher power must be the answer.


That's a lie. And he knows it. I'm surprised that he underestimates his American audience to that extent. Even an evolutionist would object to such a hopeless statement.

Of course he will "fight the good fight". He's making money off mugs. Did he punch his fist in the air on that phrase?

He's compromising science before a Christian public. It is a Christian public isn't it? Is it wande?

Even Darwin wouldn't go into the witness box for Bradlaugh despite pressure to do so.. The mere thought of doing had him spewing up.

Darwin even refused the honour of having Aveling's book dedicated to him because it would have associated him with Bradlaugh and Besant.

He actually told a lie by saying about the International Library of Science and Freethought (an assertion) -"about which I know nothing". He did know about it and plenty. He knew Bradlaugh and Besant were the editors.

Darwin wrote in rejecting Aveling's honour-

Quote:
Moreover though I am a strong advocate for free thought on all subjects (which he wasn't) , yet it appears to me, whether rightly or wrongly (there now being such things as right and wrong) that direct arguments against Christianity and theism produce hardlly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science. It has, therefore, been always my object to avoid writing on religion, and I have confined myself to science. I may, however, have been unduly biassed by the pain which it would give some members of my family if I aided in any way direct attacks on religion.


I've cleaned the punctuation up a bit and what's inside the brackets is mine.

And Dawkins is no Bradlaugh. When Bradlaugh was re-elected MP for Northampton, his first election being declared void in the Commons because to swear him in would have mocked the oath of office, he arrived to take his seat accompanied by Aveling and Besant, who was the office bike, he was "dragged down the lobby stairs and flung into Palace Yard by a mob of messengers, policemen and Tory MPs."

What does Dawkins get for a gig? $5 grand plus expenses?
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 10:52 am
I just noticed this faux pas-

Quote:
Design proponents, Dawkins said, believe that any flaw in evolution theory means that biological design by a higher power must be the answer.

That, he said, is flatly not true.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 11:21 am
Dawkins training is in animal behavior, quantitative ecology, and of late, Philosophy or Science. Just to answer Thomas question.
Quote:
There is no logic to design theory
This is like saying that there is no design in arcitecture. Hone yer skills there spendi.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 11:29 am
The article quoted Dawkins as using the phrase.

Send that pedantic lunge to him or the paper.

I wouldn't dream of pointing out the correct spelling of "architecture".

One might argue that there is no design in architecture in the context of this discussion because everything built will be dust in a fraction of the timescale involved with evolution and universe creation.

You must be very frustrating up close fm. You'll be saying Occam invented the close shave next.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 11:32 am
spendi

Im not sure where hes going with these divertimentii
Quote:
Even Darwin wouldn't go into the witness box for Bradlaugh despite pressure to do so.. The mere thought of doing had him spewing up.

Darwin even refused the honour of having Aveling's book dedicated to him because it would have associated him with Bradlaugh and Besant.

He actually told a lie by saying about the International Library of Science and Freethought (an assertion) -"about which I know nothing". He did know about it and plenty. He knew Bradlaugh and Besant were the editors.
I believe that, when Gladstone reinstated Bradlaugh, Darwin was already 2 years dead. As far as Aveling, Darwin had many easily understood books tangential to natural selection in his honor, Most of which were crap. The only really decent one was Kingsleys "Water Babies"
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 11:45 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Im not sure where hes going with these divertimentii


That doesn't necessarily mean others don't either.

You may be unique fm.

Have you just happened to have read The Water Babies recently? Is it your latest crush?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:35 pm
no, of course not. Its been like carrying coals to NEw Castle. Ive had the opportunity to discuss Hewell and Aveling and Kingsley on some other threads recently. Ive just assumed that you got the references from me.
Aveling and Kinfsley wrote Chilluns books and within them made some really stupid projections of creed and psewudo science. Kind of like Victorian "Scientologists"
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:41 pm
spendi
Quote:
fm wrote-

Quote:
Im not sure where hes going with these divertimentii


That doesn't necessarily mean others don't either.

You may be unique fm.


Perhaps youre right, or perhaps others arent as brutally frank as I. I believe Im the only one who has questioned your sanity.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:44 pm
I resent that . . . i absolutely assert that i questioned the sanity of Suprios/Pathos in the past . . . although i usually ascribe the drivel produced to dipsomania . . .
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:52 pm
now that you mention it, spendi does start sounding like Norm Crosby according to a fixed circadian cycle, apparently tied to UK pubby time.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:54 pm
Good old Norm . . . what a great reference, Boss . . .
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 03:21 pm
Shuffles feet awkwardly and wrings hands with knees slightly bent 15 degrees to port and castdown eyes.

Quote:
now that you mention it, spendi does start sounding like Norm Crosby according to a fixed circadian cycle, apparently tied to UK pubby time.


It's all a recirculation according to Vico.

Did you not understand Finnegans Wake. Now there's a book for men.

"...commodius vicus of recirculation". Geddit?

Oh-never mind. Pull the lid down when you get back in your box.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Oct, 2006 03:33 pm
Joyce took to Vico's insistence on the supreme importance of mythology and etymology and his relegation of the recitation of mere events, or a few of them, to a distant secondary status.

We are probably entering the age of Vico's "ricorso" right now. It is his 4th stage after the democratic age.

Spengler followed that line as well.

I can see how people who have invested all their time and integrity in the "events" trivia would think such things insane. They would wouldn't they. It's a form of self flattery and nothing surprising there.

The Vico/De Sade/Spengler/Joyce (for want of a word) faction don't think the event trivialists are insane. Just a little underdeveloped. Nothing to worry about if you're under 16. Can be put right. All you need is humility and, of course, curiosity.
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