Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

The Amish are honest and respectable; they do not presume to the arrogance of attempting to impose their theophilosophical worldview on the rest of society, nor do they place themselves in opposition to science and technology, they simply live by their tenets and let live- a rather more Christian practice than that of many who purport to be "True Christians" (a phrase all but constitutionally an oxymoron).

Come on timber!!

That's a bit cute.

Are you suggesting that those who debate things are dishonest and not respectable or is debate carried on from another side but your own now redefined as to " presume to the arrogance of attempting to impose their theophilosophical worldview on the rest of society." Isn't every debater doing a version of that? Anti-IDers did impose their view at Dover. Wasn't that what their lawyers were doing.

Is there any other way of proceeding?


And isn't unusual dress and economic habits different from the mainstream a form of conspicuous invidious comparison. I don't know much about them apart from their recent tragedy and I admire their reaction to it but they do live under the protection of the American security apparatus don't they and no doubt much else. Do they use financial transactions for example or medical products and domestic items which have been tested on animals.

They do seem to be in opposition to science if, as has been said, they are Creationists. And doesn't being Creationists bring them under the ID-iot umbrella along with myself despite my not being a Creationist and rl and gunga.

Come on timber!!

That's a bit cute.

Are you suggesting that those who debate things are dishonest and not respectable or is debate carried on from another side but your own now redefined as to " presume to the arrogance of attempting to impose their theophilosophical worldview on the rest of society." Isn't every debater doing a version of that? Anti-IDers did impose their view at Dover. Wasn't that what their lawyers were doing.

Is there any other way of proceeding?


And isn't unusual dress and economic habits different from the mainstream a form of conspicuous invidious comparison. I don't know much about them apart from their recent tragedy and I admire their reaction to it but they do live under the protection of the American security apparatus don't they and no doubt much else. Do they use financial transactions for example or medical products and domestic items which have been tested on animals.

They do seem to be in opposition to science if, as has been said, they are Creationists. And doesn't being Creationists bring them under the ID-iot umbrella along with myself despite my not being a Creationist and rl and gunga.

There evidently - multiply, massively, ongoingly evidently - is much about which you don't know much, spendi; no need to go out of your way to hammer a point to which all readilly will stipulate.

I have been reading a bit about the Amish and they do seem rather odd.

They seem to have a number of variations in their beliefs as some of them seek compromise with the outside world.

I gather they have genetic problems caused by endogamy and that they flout child labour and school attendence laws.

Is that right? You're the expert. I'm a willing student as always.

If you remember I advised against the use of ID-iot when it first appeared on the thread.

Not all Christians - nor all who hold some one or another of the myriad Creationist views, are ID-iots, spendi - the ID-iots are a very distinct group.

There are a variety of sects within the Amish faith - more a lifestyle, really, than a faith per se; they don't just talk it, they live it - and several off-shoots which while descended from Amish tradition hold themselves distinct from it. While of course, there will be exceptions, as a demographic, such folks, Amish and kindred religionists, tend significantly to be honest, honorable, hard working, responsible, charitable, hale, healthy, hearty, vigorous and fecund, staunchly community-oriented, without notable genetic defect, a bit reclusive, pacifistic, and not much interested in the wonders of the modern age. I respect them deeply for the way they deal with their beliefs, and I count myself fortunate and honored to have known many, of various stripe, and to have been been freinds with some.

I do hope that you read something a bit scholarly. Then maybe the word "Odd" wont appear in your responses. Maybe in your religion you would call such people martyrs or ascetics. Depends on your POV and tolerance for that which is outside your frame of reference.

Id suggest reading Donald Kraybills. 1989, ", The Riddle of Amish Culture" Hopkins Press:

John Hostetler's 1993 , "Amish Society" 4th ed, also Hopkins Press.

William Ball's1975 "Building a Landmark Case:Wisconsin v Yoder" inCompulsory Education and the Amish: The RightNot To Be Modern edited byAlbert Keim <Beacon Press.

William Ball 1993 "first Amendment Issues in , The Amish and the State edited by Donald Kraybill, Hopkins Press.

These are not lightweight studies of the Amish, but they wil answer your questions better than we can discuss on a chat line.

Would you class the Amish, loosely, as IDers, using that term in its widest interpretation.

I don't mind in the least being associated, however remotely, with such qualities.

I have read that the "hale, healthy, hearty" bit might not be quite up to the standard of the more salubrious parts of Olde England but I gather they are definitely "vigorous".

If ID-iots are a distinct group they ought to be easy to define.

Could you enlighten us on that then? They have been mentioned a lot and it is probably useful for us to know exactly their nature. If we don't it seems pointless mentioning them at all.

Amish profess a literal belief in Young Earth Creationism, thats their personal belief. They DO NOT BELIEVE IN prosyletizing their beliefs. Theirs is a personal revelation. They even allow their young to indulge in the "world" by the Rumspringe events. In that , the young are able to party, get drunk, etc and then decide for themselves what their path will be.
Funny thing is , that in Pa, after Rumspringe , over 98% of the Amish decide to be baptized and accept the severe life that their society demands. The Amish did not come over to America on the denying themselves modern conveniences, A minister named Harz who had a son who was a salesman for a milling company began to experiment with taboos that, by late 1800's standards , were more show than inconvenience. The Amish allowed , till that point, the use of many modern conveniences. A "Division occured in 1910" which broke apart the "church" and "House Amish" The shunning of the progressive "Church Amish" (actually the Progressive Amish-Mennonites) for these Harz transgressions , came about at a time when things like electricty, cars, and radio were just coming on-line. The "House Amish" bishops ruled in favor of the more severe life and hence, since only about 1910, were the Amish actually reminded by discipline to maintain a greater degree of separation from the modern world.
Today, the disciplines are constantly being re thought and the concept of the Galassenheist (the order submission) allows such conveniences that do not require a connection to the outside world (mostly a wire)
So, they use cell phones, batteried up by diesel generators that run pumps and refrigerators. etc.


Obviously ID is a component of Creationism, using PAleys argument. Modern ID is , however less firml;y attached to Paley and more to Phil Johnson, because, while PAley was a strict Biblical literalist, many IDers dont slaim to be such. (I kinda doubt that though, I just think that they have themselves caught in their own coriolis)

Indeed - there's no work to that at all; they define themselves.

I follow this thread everyday - with interest, but I don't feel I have the articulacy to join in the debate effectively. For me the most important thing is that there IS a debate...

I have just been listening to the Jeremy Vine interview with Richard Dawkins on the BBC (link below - it will be tomorrow I think before you can 'listen again' - follow the links).

I think it's work listening to - whatever your views or religious affiliations. Particularly with reference to The Blind Watchmaker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/vine/

Thank you very much, smorgs!

You're welcome.

x

smorgs-

It's all old stuff. It's washed out. All that "You used to ride a chrome horse with your diplomat" stuff.

They can go on with it, round and round in circles, until the end of time assuming there is an end to time of course. Which is probably unlikely.

It's a posh version of "Yes it is" , "It isn't", "It is you know", "Not for me mate", "We're gonna shove it up your ass", "Oh no you're not", "We bloody well are", "Fat chance", "You'll see", "You're having yourself on", "I'm not", "You are", "No I'm not"," etc etc etc...................

It get's personal and there's money in it.

Making a watch is a piece of cake. All you need is a bunch of restless Faustians. Try making a bee's wing and it's skill at knowing which flowers have the sweetest nectar. Did you see Lonesome George the other night.
He might have seen Darwin you know. I bet he creaked off fast if he did.

Anyway- Welcome to this astounding thread. It makes a change to have a lady in our midst. Perhaps we might moderate our language now we know that. We'll have to pull our socks up with a beady eye like you've got surveying the scene.

Michigan update -



ID-iots slapped down. Again.

That's only to be expected in Michigan timber. No surprises there. It's blue isn't it. Lost the election I think. You should see what they vote for here in some places. The Tories could get a monkey in in Huntingdon and Labour a crocodile in Ebbw Vale.

Is the State Board of Education in anyway similar to the Dover Board.

I see the issue has been resolved as intelligent design just being a load of ****. Onto the next question!

That part was interesting.

I wonder what type of online experience they will have to complete?

Hey, that was weird, my most recent post appeared several posts earlier than when I posted it. It actually appeared before the post from Timber which I quoted. (I wonder where this one will go...)