Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

The style and substance typifying the interactions of certain members on these boards leaves scant option but to take such offerings for what they evidence themselves to be, regardless in what light the members responsible for said postings might purport to be appropriate, the postings here of rl, spendi, and gunga as cases-in-point. One is brought immediately to mind of the aphorism, "Often it is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought an ass than to speak and confirm the impression". Then too, as has been observed also, perhaps said members are doing the best they are able given that which is available to them. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. Genius has, recognizes, and acknowledges its limits, idiocy knows no bounds.

0 Replies

BTW - I submit that while gunga claims to have been the victim of ad hominem attack, such is not the case, whereas gunga's posts have evidenced - severally - precisely that behavior.

0 Replies

timber-

Your post 2303709 is actually meaningless. I know it gives a certain impression from the general style and choice of words but it is meaningless so wide is the range of potential interpretation and applications.

It is the impression I wish to correct.

My position bears no relation to what I understand the positions of the other two members you mention to be and if you don't know a simple thing like that after all this time I can only assume that must look at evidence in a particularly subjective manner.

I might look with approval on many religious positions in the world without having the slightest inclination to embrace any of the tenets of their faiths.

You seem to be unfortunately stuck with the notion that the social consequences of belief systems count for nothing whereas I think they are the only matters of real substance to a non-specialist audience and to the organisation of societies under the conditions they have to work with.

The word "religion" specifically derives from a Latin concept having to do with nothing else.

0 Replies

PALEO PROTEOMICS_ A new field that is looking to discern the remnant proteinaceous materials left behind in fossils as rehydrateable polymers. The field has recieved the most attention after Mary SChweitzer (a Paleontologist from Uof NC) had discovered a fossil T Rex from the Hell Creek Formation that contained remnants of flexible tissue and actual red blood cells in the veins.
The Hell Creek formation, clearly of Cretaceous age (roughly 70 my based upon radioisotopic decay) had contained bones of a TRexfirmly contained within the formation as a replacement fossil (not a cast or mold).However because it was too bulky to fit in a packing crate after it was covered with plaster, the scientists decided to break the bones along a medial line. Thats when they discovered the soft tissue. This tissue , flexible and rubbery could be rehydrated (thus giving the sheen and pink color shown in the Science pictures. HoweverThe key, to the appearance and the presence of the lifelike soft tissue she believes, may be the iron content of the proteins hemoglobin and myoglobin.

After an organism dies, iron released from these proteins triggers the formation of highly reactive oxygen" free- radicals". Other multivalent state metals in the environment may also produce the same effect.

Such metal-generated free radicals may trigger the formation of longer metal based polymers , which essentially bind and lock remaining cellular structures in place.

"Eventually, the polymerized remains become inert, free from attack from the outside and further chemical change" SChweitzer stated in A National Geographic Explorer update.(Thats her opinion, of course, and the resaerch is going on now)

There will be a presentation at the upcoming meeting of the GEological Society of America in Philadelphia , during the week of Oct 24 , 2006 (I know Im gonna be there< )
No matter what the outcome, I find it exciting as hell, and again, no matter what the conclusion, lets not bury our heads in the sand gunga. Im willing to accept findings once theyre peer reviewed.

Iron based polymers , called emulsion polymers include buffers and free radical initiators of the polymerization process.Chemicals consistent with decay , such as potassium Sulfur salts, complex amines, mercaptans, and Oxygen/iron free radicals can polymerize at temps below 100 degrees C. The final product is a latex-like substance which can lose water and dessicate while still remaining flexible.
We create silica based polymers forming such products as silane or siloxane which are waxy quartz rock material with a natural resonance. We used to create siloxane "glass harmonica" tubes by filling test tubes and columns with silica liquid, then with addition of a metal the matterial would "set up" and remain as a waxy glass that is so stable that we are looking to use it as a entombing material for nuclear waste. But thats another story
Perhaps Schweitzer is on the right track, perhaps not. Whatever the case, they are proceeding carefully since You dont want to destroy your field samples before analyzing them.(theyre using Rayman spec to do the analyses as well as Energy dispersive Xray))
Its been said that, since the first finding, her team has discovered a few more flexible tissue remains.

0 Replies

spendius wrote:

timber-

Your post 2303709 is actually meaningless. I know it gives a certain impression from the general style and choice of words but it is meaningless so wide is the range of potential interpretation and applications.

Rotten meat, rotten compost, and rotten discourse share little other than the attribute of being rotten.

Quote:

The word "religion" specifically derives from a Latin concept having to do with nothing else.

Bringing us right back around to the style and substance of discourse with which you choose to burden the rest of us.

0 Replies

timber-

Your refusal to face up to the social consequences is getting more and more conspicuous as this thread progresses.

Surely you don't think that the bluster and bombast you have regaled us with pulls the wool over anybody's eyes but your own.

It is as if you think that you being proven correct is more important than the fate of your fellow man.

We are, I'm afraid, living in a fair imitation of a rathouse and that is the result of dipping a toe into the inexorable logic of materialism.

And here's you , using all the literary tools at your command, encouraging us not only to dive into the deep end but suggesting that we have no alternative and without, seemingly, you having the slightest interest in the consequences.

It is a good job our elected leaders don't take the same view is all I can say, nor any of the likely alternatives on offer in subsequent elections.

You must try to realise that not only is Post No 2303709 meaningless but so also is-

Quote:

Rotten meat, rotten compost, and rotten discourse share little other than the attribute of being rotten.

It is also infantile and an obvious ostrich manoeuvre.

The word "religion", which is in the title of the the thread, does actually derive from a Classical concept solely and exclusively concerned with social consequences and your response to such an idea; namely-

Quote:

Bringing us right back around to the style and substance of discourse with which you choose to burden the rest of us.

is as meaningless and pointless as the other tripe you posted as anybody with a modicum of common sense will quickly realise if they can be bothered giving it more than a pico-second of their attention.

0 Replies

spendius wrote:

timber-

Surely you don't think that the bluster and bombast you have regaled us with pulls the wool over anybody's eyes but your own.

He makes sense. You don't.

Very simple.

0 Replies

farmerman wrote:

PALEO PROTEOMICS_ A new field that is looking to discern the remnant proteinaceous materials left behind in fossils as rehydrateable polymers. The field has recieved the most attention after Mary SChweitzer (a Paleontologist from Uof NC) had discovered a fossil T Rex from the Hell Creek Formation that contained remnants of flexible tissue and actual red blood cells in the veins.
The Hell Creek formation, clearly of Cretaceous age (roughly 70 my based upon radioisotopic decay) had contained bones of a TRexfirmly contained within the formation as a replacement fossil (not a cast or mold).However because it was too bulky to fit in a packing crate after it was covered with plaster, the scientists decided to break the bones along a medial line. Thats when they discovered the soft tissue. This tissue , flexible and rubbery could be rehydrated (thus giving the sheen and pink color shown in the Science pictures. HoweverThe key, to the appearance and the presence of the lifelike soft tissue she believes, may be the iron content of the proteins hemoglobin and myoglobin.

After an organism dies, iron released from these proteins triggers the formation of highly reactive oxygen" free- radicals". Other multivalent state metals in the environment may also produce the same effect.

Such metal-generated free radicals may trigger the formation of longer metal based polymers , which essentially bind and lock remaining cellular structures in place.

"Eventually, the polymerized remains become inert, free from attack from the outside and further chemical change" SChweitzer stated in A National Geographic Explorer update.(Thats her opinion, of course, and the resaerch is going on now)

There will be a presentation at the upcoming meeting of the GEological Society of America in Philadelphia , during the week of Oct 24 , 2006 (I know Im gonna be there< )
No matter what the outcome, I find it exciting as hell, and again, no matter what the conclusion, lets not bury our heads in the sand gunga. Im willing to accept findings once theyre peer reviewed.

Iron based polymers , called emulsion polymers include buffers and free radical initiators of the polymerization process.Chemicals consistent with decay , such as potassium Sulfur salts, complex amines, mercaptans, and Oxygen/iron free radicals can polymerize at temps below 100 degrees C. The final product is a latex-like substance which can lose water and dessicate while still remaining flexible.
We create silica based polymers forming such products as silane or siloxane which are waxy quartz rock material with a natural resonance. We used to create siloxane "glass harmonica" tubes by filling test tubes and columns with silica liquid, then with addition of a metal the matterial would "set up" and remain as a waxy glass that is so stable that we are looking to use it as a entombing material for nuclear waste. But thats another story
Perhaps Schweitzer is on the right track, perhaps not. Whatever the case, they are proceeding carefully since You dont want to destroy your field samples before analyzing them.(theyre using Rayman spec to do the analyses as well as Energy dispersive Xray))
Its been said that, since the first finding, her team has discovered a few more flexible tissue remains.

Dr Schweitzer has found soft tissue in a least a dozen other dinosaur specimens as of early this year.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0221_060221_dino_tissue.html

I think it is remotely possible but not very likely that all specimens were found in similar environments/conditions.

I would be very interested to hear an update when you get back from Philly.

0 Replies

rl

Quote:

I think it is remotely possible but not very likely that all specimens were found in similar environments/conditions.

That sounds like a scientific conclusion, on what evidence do you say its "remotely possible but not very likely". It seems that shes only working with fossils from the HEll Creek. All of them are not casts or molds but are real silicified bone .

Polymerization is what I had explained above ( but without a self assured ""remotely possible but highly unlikely") smugness. Usually, when a new frontier is pierced, We try not to draw conclusions without really strong data. Even a statement of "remotely Possible" is only demonstrating that you are merely attempting to get some "quality time"with a possible Stand on Creationism. As has been your and gungas stands, you hear of things in the popular press and even before the specimens are shipped home you have an opinion (I wont comment on their worth).
Please, Dont wet your pants, As I said before, the process of polymerization is quite common in fossil evidence. This just happens to be a unique one where the iron in haem or myoglobin are possibly responsible for the catalysis.

We know that the fossils are 70 million years old. You merely want to insert some incredulity because the pictures look like fresh meat no? Do I have your number?
The soft tissue had been rehydrated when the pictures were taken. And they were taken with color augment ation

.Edward (spendi) Bulwar Lytton-father of the Pre-Raphealite authors We are, I'm afraid, living in a fair imitation of a rathouse and that is the result of dipping a toe into the inexorable logic of materialism.

Quote:

And you write from out your anal orifice. BUT, I believe others have told you more elegantly than I am able

0 Replies

farmerman wrote:

rl
Quote:
I think it is remotely possible but not very likely that all specimens were found in similar environments/conditions.
That sounds like a scientific conclusion, on what evidence do you say its "remotely possible but not very likely". It seems that shes only working with fossils from the HEll Creek. All of them are not casts or molds but are real silicified bone .

Polymerization is what I had explained above ( but without a self assured ""remotely possible but highly unlikely") smugness. Usually, when a new frontier is pierced, We try not to draw conclusions without really strong data. Even a statement of "remotely Possible" is only demonstrating that you are merely attempting to get some "quality time"with a possible Stand on Creationism. As has been your and gungas stands, you hear of things in the popular press and even before the specimens are shipped home you have an opinion (I wont comment on their worth).
Please, Dont wet your pants, As I said before, the process of polymerization is quite common in fossil evidence. This just happens to be a unique one where the iron in haem or myoglobin are possibly responsible for the catalysis.

We know that the fossils are 70 million years old. You merely want to insert some incredulity because the pictures look like fresh meat no? Do I have your number?
The soft tissue had been rehydrated when the pictures were taken. And they were taken with color augment ation

My statement was far from a scientific conclusion. I ventured my opinion, clearly labeled as such.

I think, as I said before , that the likelihood that the dozen or more samples (they are not all from Hell's Creek) that have yielded soft tissue were all buried under the same conditions is very small.

Very easy to check on some of these.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22author%3AM.%20H.+Schweitzer%22

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=pubmed&term=Schweitzer+MH[au]&dispmax=50

If I've guessed wrong, it was simply an opinion.

I try always to distinguish between opinion and scientific conclusions, but I'll agree that I've often read instances where one comes dressed up as the other.

I clearly marked mine as opinion, however.

0 Replies

ros wrote-

Quote:

He makes sense. You don't.

Very simple.

You must be a bit of a trial at close quarters ros if you go about blurting unsubstantiated assertions of such simplicity and believing them to mean something.

If you could explain what you had difficulty with in my recent posts I will endevour to explain. I can't imagine what you have an educational system for if the social consequences of it are of no account.

fm wrote-

Quote:

Edward (spendi) Bulwar Lytton-father of the Pre-Raphealite authors We are, I'm afraid, living in a fair imitation of a rathouse and that is the result of dipping a toe into the inexorable logic of materialism.
Quote:

And you write from out your anal orifice. BUT, I believe others have told you more elegantly than I am able

Another assertion but thanks for the compliment just the same.

0 Replies

Quote:

Evolution a hard sell for many

0 Replies

Obviously wande there is a problem when middle class lady professors attempt to teach what is, after all, a disgusting and depraved view of humanity to 19 year old lady students.

Quote:

"I'm not hacked off anymore," she said. "I want them to at least understand what they're rejecting. If they choose to ignore it, that's their prerogative."

Well-not exactly. Surely there is an examination question? Why else teach the topic? So how can the students ignore it without risking failing the examination?

Would anti-IDers mind answering these questions instead of resorting to ignorant bombastic booing.

Quote:

National polls indicate that about half of Americans believe God created humans in our current form.

Do you object to someone on this thread trying to defend that "half"?

Will you answer that please?

Quote:

"People are told, if your children reject creationism, they're going to reject God and burn in hell," he said.

That is so disingenuous I consider it a barefaced lie. "People" are nowhere near the same as that "half" and to try to suggest otherwise is cheating. What it does reveal is the very low opinion the speaker and the paper have of American education in general. There are "people" who believe all sorts of crazy things. No doubt the statement is true but of how many. Certainly not me.

Quote:

Yes- they have elaborate social systems which reach out in concentric circles as far as spanning the globe. That statement is another way into the social consequences problem which anti-IDers are understandably so sensitive about that they hide away from it hoping no-one will notice.

0 Replies

In post No 2302605 on page 761 ros accused me of misogyny.

In post No 2303363 I replied.

Now read this from yesterday's Sunday Times-

Quote:

I apologise for making such a demand on some attention spans.

Taking this bit out-

Quote:

The academics have identified the emergence of a "glass partition" between the sexes that, they say, is also damaging the career prospects of women.

So you see what ros is up to.

By being one of the men who-

Quote:

are self-censoring innocent compliments and office banter when in mixed company, killing off office romance, according to a study by psychologists at the University of California, Los Angeles.

he is damaging women's careers and general happiness.

By implication my "misogyny" is promoting women's careers and general happiness which might explain my popularity with some intelligent ladies on the Trivia threads.

One assumes the psychologists at the University of Calafornia bring a scientific approach to these matters.

And that they would think ros's assertions to be not worth a blow.

0 Replies

No spendi, ros is only commenting on your constant oblique (and sometimes not so oblique) comments on the diminished mental capacities, and the , the frailty and the proclivities toward hysteria that women display. You have an almost paternalistc view toward them. These are assertions backed by evidence within your own posts. If you dont see that then I submit that you really are a bubble off center.

Also I believe that your attention to ladies foundation garments is forensically pathological.

0 Replies

fm wrote-

Quote:

Also I believe that your attention to ladies foundation garments is forensically pathological.

Me and the whole media/advertising industry plus much more. I think "pathological" is defined as as aspect of minorities and there is a quite respectable psychological school of large proportions which defines the puritan as expressing a pathological fear of the female sex.

It is a very surprising remark you made as a supporter of a truly disgusting and depraved idea such as evolution theory is when applied to humans.

I gather it isn't like that in Tehran though.

I would like to see an example or two of where I have made

[/quote] "comments on the diminished mental capacities, and the , the frailty and the proclivities toward hysteria that women display.[/quote]

Ideas like that seem more rooted in your head than in mine.

You obviously haven't much sense of humour and seem quite unwilling to allow the ladies to speak for themselves on these matters.

But thanks for drawing our attention to "ladies' foundation garments" all the same. It is a nice phrase isn't it.

Bob Dylan was asked at a press conference once what he would sell out to if ever he did sell out.

He replied- "Ladies' garments." Everybody laughed.

Are laughs in short supply where you are?

Oh-BTW- are the Amish ID-iots? They seem to fit your definition.

0 Replies

Quote:

Me and the whole media/advertising industry plus much more. I think "pathological" is defined as as aspect of minorities and there is a quite respectable psychological school of large proportions which defines the puritan as expressing a pathological fear of the female sex.

. Ok , so youre a puritan then. Im easy to get along with.

Quote:

Are laughs in short supply where you are?

Not with you on the line.

0 Replies

Quote:

Are laughs in short supply where you are? NOT WITH ONE LIKE SPENDI ON THE LINE

Oh-BTW- are the Amish ID-iots? They seem to fit your definition.

THATS NOT MY PREFERRED TERM OF USE AND I DONT BELIEVE IVE EVER USED IT I MERELY CALLEM IDers, but no the AMISH are "young earth Creationists" they are imbued with the ID philosophy as underpinning of Creationism, and, of course , there is a great deal of jugation being that Creation came from ID and vice versa but theAmish are not willing to do the tortuous acceptance of some rules of science while denying others as the modern IDers must.

0 Replies

fm wrote-

Quote:

Ok , so youre a puritan then.

That I might be seeing as how twas a Jesuit priest who turned me on to James Joyce and the radiantiflushing fluxionicals of the flamminent femmesqueezies hencloistered allpeeping hunderneats the pantalooninoose. To my great shame.

I deny no rule of science that I know of. If there was any dangerous scientific knowledge would you be in favour of teaching it in the relevant science classes? Or would you, as wande's last report suggests "water it down"?

I read about an American religious sect once which had some very interesting sexual practices. Could that have been the Amish. I can't remember having read so many books about America. It was similar.

0 Replies

fm wrote-

Quote:

THATS NOT MY PREFERRED TERM OF USE AND I DONT BELIEVE IVE EVER USED IT I MERELY CALLEM IDers,

I apologise fm. I must have made the same mistake that you did trying to line me up with rl and gunga. Anti-IDers do use the expression ID-iot quite a bit.

Do you think those who do use it would apply it to the Amish?

0 Replies

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know