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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:08 am
Someone should take urgent steps to liquidate any shred of influence on the educational system this lot up above might possibly have, even if, as I would expect, it is already infinitesimal.

They have not mentioned human beings and their social organisation for over two pages.

It is a form of rough love making.

Anti-IDers think God is a fable designed to uphold capitalist exploiters and the concept of sin is a fabrication intended to make workers feel guilty about demanding their rights. Hence God has to go and capitalist exploiters will have to use terror or pharmaceuticals or surgery in order to keep the shops stocked with goods, the roads open and everything else running (Heaven forbid!) The alternative, of course is to have no capitalist exploiters (Heaven forbid!), no sin (Heaven forbid!) and no guilt (Heaven forbid!). The wealth presumably to be equally shared out (Heaven forbid!) and the Dow Jones at Zero (Heaven forbid!), shagging in the streets (Heaven forbid!), price gouging (Heaven forbid!) and, ultimately a smoking ruin (Heaven forbid!). A war of all against all.

Meanwhile the chattering classes chatter on with the detritus of each individual chatterer's happenstance reading doing battle in isolationist, lonely ego blurtings of no consequence to anything outside of their uncrackable eggshells.

A sense of sin and guilt provides a young person with an inkling into the insight that temptations succumbed to ( a media need) have no penance on the end of them. That "love" (copulation to an anti-IDer) does not have henpecked husbands and impotence and families-

Quote:
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

P Larkin --This Be The Verse.


and big fat arses on the end of it and that yummy-yummy grub does not have arteriosclerosis as bedmate and that a large pile of other self indulgencies come without risk.

Heaven help us all if anti-IDers prevail which, of course, they won't because technical expertise, even the warmed over leavings of worshipped deities of the human sort, does not run and organise a superpower with heavy responsibilities to humankind just like the inane and infantile ramblings up above contributes nothing to the debate about how classroom preparation for adulthood should be organised.

When the author of A Clockwork Orange was a schoolboy he was seduced by a 40 odd year old widow who he met in the reading room of the Central Library in Manchester where she was studying the Communist Manifesto. His third, and last, visit to her flat took place after they had been to a Halle concert where he asked her, in between the copulations, how she reconciled the "spiritual transports of listening to Brahms with a metaphysic that denied the non-material. Epiphenomenal, or something, she said; mere excitation of the nerves. Like this. And then we were at it again."

And that was before Armstrong wrote A Materialist Theory of Mind.

Everything anti-IDers say is correct in its jejune simplicity (how else could they know it?) and ruinous and they are frightened out of their wits at the idea of trying to show that it won't be ruinous because they know they will get the floor wiped with them on the issue. That is why they stick to these displays of what, in reality, are the equivalent theologically to kids in a nursery banging on a drum for the simple reason (and all reasons are simple to anti-IDers) that one gets large effects with little effort.

And rl is the minder who is conducting their ridiculous orchestra and has no intention of raising their sights beyond the horizon they are already familiar with. Goodness gracious no! They might catch a glimpse of a tit at the Superbowl.


They say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but they don't say it loudly enough.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:09 am
real life wrote:
Well, Setanta, I am sure that when you were in school they taught you that these changes took place gradually, over extraordinarily long periods of time. Billions of years.


Your certainty is misplaced. My introduction to "natural history" came with an excellent book we had at home, which i read when the boys and girls at school were still reading "Dick and Jane." In fact, you are willfully ignoring that i have already pointed out that complex organism had hundreds of millions of years to evolve, not billions of years, a claim which i did not make.

Quote:
But modern evolutionary theory doesn't have billions of years to work with.

It has far less than that.


That is false. A theory of evolution stipulates more than a billion years for life, merely as life. It does not specify billions of years for complex organisms, and neither did i--i only referred to hundreds of millions of years, and that is at least hundreds of thousands of generations, if not more than a million. Once again, you are trying to insert your young earth chronology into a theory of evolution to assert internal contradictions which do not exist, as a theory of evolution does not assume such a radically brief period of time in which evolution would have occured.

Quote:
The fact is that (even according to evolutions staunchest defenders) most major groups of critters appear in the fossil record rather suddenly, and fully formed with little if any forewarning.

The Cambrian explosion and the periods surrounding it are the undoing of many a good evolutionist.


This is simply more willful distortion on your part. The Cambrian "explosion" is only an "explosion" in geological terms. The Cambrian era lasted for over fifty million years. That's not much in geological terms, but it is an eternity in the lifetimes of the organisms then existing. The evidence of the Cambrian era has not "undone" anyone studying a theory of evolution. That was the period in which organisms became more complex than sponges and similar organisms--it is not asserted by any reputable scientist to be an era in which organisms as complex as mammals arose. You're playing fast and loose with the truth here, which is something with which we are all too familiar.

Quote:
You need rapid change and evolution needs a mechanism that produces it.

It's not there.


The life cycle of sponges can be completed in much less than a year. Even if more complex organisms arising from sponges took a year to complete a reproductive cycle, you've got fifty million generations to work with. Once again, you attempt to distort the truth by introducing word games, claiming that the Cambrian "explosion" took place rapidly. In the life cycle of rocks, fifty million years is relatively brief. In the life cycle of complex organisms which are only slightly more complex than sponges, it is a long, long, long, long time.

Quote:
You contradict the idea of gradualism anyway when you postulate critters with three chambered hearts suddenly beginning to give birth to offspring with four chambered hearts.

So you're kinda stuck either way.


No, i'm not stuck at all. I did not postulate that mammals with three-chambered hearts "suddenly" gave birth to mammls with four-chambered hearts. Once again, you play word games, and attempt to make your case by using a trick. I specifically pointed out that a mutation could have created a four-chambered heart over and over again in the offspring of mammals which ordinarily have three-chambered hearts, and that this change does not become apparent until environmental conditions favor mammals with four-chambered hearts, and speciation occurs. A three-chambered heart has a large lower chamber, and a four-chambered heart is not significantly larger, it simply has a membrane which has divided the large lower chamber. Such a membrane could occur again and again and again as a mutation, before it confers an advantage which eventually results in speciation.

As always, you conflate you silly young-earth thesis of a brief time span with the internal consistency of a theory of evolution. A theory of evolution stipulates billions of years, and at the least hundreds of millions of years for complex organisms. It isn't necessary to imagine sudden change over time spans that great.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:13 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Well, the Catholic Church has really not been seeking the well-educated as its main membership component anyway.


What a stupid statement that is but it does leave a faint odour that suggests that fm is well educated. At this distance I mean.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:17 am
FM makes a point which i had wished to bring up, but had forgotten, although i did introduce it a few pages back. That is that "real life" continues to claim that there is only "circumstantial" evidence for a theory of evolution--and that is because he simply pig-headly refuses to acknowledge any other evidence. But as FM points out, he has no evidence at all for his poofism.

Which brings me back to my favorite question for "real life"--what circumstantial evidence do you allege there to be, "real life," for a creation by your imaginary friend?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:31 am
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
My introduction to "natural history" came with an excellent book we had at home, which i read when the boys and girls at school were still reading "Dick and Jane."


You see gentle viewers. He's cleverer than the rest of us. He writes "i" instead of "I" as a gesture of humility. And his home had books. Or one at least.

And it would have to be an "excellent" book for such a clever person to have chosen it. Obviously. That's a forgiveable assertion I suppose.

But "Dick and Jane", which I'm afraid I have not read myself , could possibly have paved the way for a less intransigent invidious comparison with the other boys and girls which, in the fullness of time, could well have produced a less intransigent invidious comparison with others than the one we see from this poster on regular occasions.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:41 am
And Setanta asserted that I "ruined" threads and here he is back on the ruined thread which has put on going up to 3,000 views in nearly 7 days which isn't bad for a debate.

So viewers have a benchmark with which to consider the assertion that the natural history book was an "excellent" one and that Dick and Jane was for the lumpen masses who's fate should rightly be guided by the swots with pushy parents.

Bollocks! The prophets of BIB BROTHER can go f*** themselves as far as I'm concerned.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:46 am
"Bib Brother? ? ?"

Is that an authoritarian figure who does not approve of one's eating habits?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 07:59 am
No. It's a vicarious authoritarian figure who thinks he should eat and the rest provide as a natural evolutionary consequence of his innate superiority as demonstrated by his choice of reading material. Lke Dr Strangelove he thinks he should have the best mating opportunities as well because his genetic material is of the highest quality.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 08:01 am
The Cambrian explosion keeps getting extended i. length. Now with the discovery of several hard shelled pre Cambrian life forms (like Tribrachidium-a possible antece3dent to the most ancient arthrpods,snd Parvacorins a possible precursor to hard shelled brachipods , and ANDCharniodiscus, which may even have had a notochord) The examples of the VEndian life bush gets more and more gradual")
Quote:
The fact is that (even according to evolutions staunchest defenders) most major groups of critters appear in the fossil record rather suddenly, and fully formed with little if any forewarning.

The Cambrian explosion and the periods surrounding it are the undoing of many a good evolutionist.


Nobody's been "undone by the CAmbrian explosion. Thats just wishful thinking by Creationists who, upon seeing their own quivers empty, have tried to discredit real science with these dishonest claims.

Notochords appear in the VEndian and repeat in the early cambrian(the Atdabanian period to be precise) Then during the remaining stages of the CAmbrian additional animals make their first appearances. Still, the complete suite of animals arent seen fully until the Anisian stage of the Triassic (which is 310 million years later). Then it still takes another 100 million years later until placental and marsupial mammals take over)


The remarkable thing isnt, as you say RL that things appear suddenly and fully formed, the real neat thing is that the intermediates leave enough fossil information to track their morphological changes.

By selctively ignoring this, you might as well ignore gravity or atomic theory.

Im saddened that despite appearing as intelligent as you do, you have locked yourself into a mindset that does not really allow its pathways to be questioned.

Ive been [perfectly honest about the many problems that evolution theory still hs. There are many more in the microbiological side and genetics end that Im not qualified to discuss as an expert. However, we all acknowledge these shortcomings and pursue their answers. If evolution were overturned tomorrow by a bolt of irrefutable evidence, the science would undergo a sea change and there would be billions of words written about it. I havent seen any of that, in fact , quite the opposite effect has occure. Evolutionary theory is even more credible now than ever. There are very few places left for you to duck and cover.
IMHO, if I were your church organization, Id be attempting to modify your theology to better accomodate scientific finds. The fact that Pope Benedict wishes to set back the Catholic Church a few decades is something that will have to be dealt with just like Pope John 23 dealt with the Pious's proclamations of "special evolution"
Church law(for Catholics ) is based upon tradition=Scripture (Catholics always liked the Timothy Books) Traditions change and will again if Benedict is relly serious. However, what the Catholic Church is doing is way different than placing beliefs in a Creationist myth that is so easily disproved that its rarely even brought up (except in what I consider"holdout forums" like this one)
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 08:06 am
I don't think this is a "hold-out" forum, FM. It is a site which is sufficiently catholic (pun intended) to attract all kinds of folks. It is insufficiently religious in character to discourage the skeptics, and insufficiently rigorous to discourae the poofists.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 08:28 am
I must apologize for my spelling today, Im having real problems with my crippled left hand , I have no feeling in my entire left arm this week (probably from piloting the boat too much). Its so bad that Im almost clubbing the keys with my left thumb only. i hope my words can be deciphered.


Ill accept that Set, but I lose patience when a Creationist tells me what evolution"Ists" actually believe or what affects how science interprets something. Science will only believe what can be proven with good direct and circumstantial evidence. Then, standing on an assumed high ground,the Creationists fail to see that they aint got any pants on and are totally unarmed .

Ive actually seen the vendian fauna, including the Ediacaran. from different pre drft locations of the world, The specimens and photos were shown to me by Y Kondo, a respected science photographer. The Ediacaran fauna is anything but "simple' and, it mostly died out before the CAmbrian but left basic body plans like the first possible notochord in the shales.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 08:33 am
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
It is insufficiently religious in character to discourage the skeptics, and insufficiently rigorous to discourae the poofists.


He's a reflex asserter. He has no other mode of mental mechanics.

He's Henry the bloody Eighth in his bedroom. Cromwell on the shithouse.
Stalin in his lair.

The more rigorous he is the more you had better start digging a fall-out shelter. And he has a smattering of Latin which is a very sad state to be in.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 09:22 am
CREATIONIST PROPAGANDA UPDATE

Quote:
America's Taliban strikes again
(By John Brummett, Arkansas News Bureau, August 28, 2006)

The Holocaust wasn't Hitler's fault. Darwin made him do it. Complicit as well are any who buy into the scientific theory that modern man evolved from lower animal forms.

That's the latest lunacy from one of our more fanatical right-wing American Christian television outfits, the Coral Ridge Ministries in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Coral Ridge espouses that America is not a free-religion nation, but a Christian one. It argues there should be no separation of church and state.

Thus it's America's Taliban, America's Shiite theocracy.

It certainly has a propensity for explaining or excusing Hitler. A few years ago it brought in a conference speaker to argue that American abortion was a more horrible atrocity than the Holocaust.

One year it disinvited Cal Thomas as a conference speaker after Brother Cal got too liberal. You're thinking I must be kidding. But I kid you not. Brother Cal had displayed the utter audacity to co-author a book contending that American Christian conservatives ought to worry a little more about spreading the gospel from the bottom of the culture up rather than from the top of politics down.

Now this: Coral Ridge is airing a couple of cable installments of a "documentary," called "Darwin's Deadly Legacy," that seek to make a case that, without Darwin, there could have been no Hitler.

Authoritative sources for the program include no less than columnist Ann Coulter, noted scientist, who says she is outraged that she didn't get instructed in Darwin's effective creation of Hitler when she was in school. She says she has since come to understand that Hitler was merely a Darwinist trying, by extermination of a group of people he considered inferior because of their religion and heritage, to "hurry along" the natural survival of the Aryan fittest.

Also quoted is Dr. Francis Collins, director of the National Human Genome Project, who tells the Anti-Defamation League that his comments were used out of context and that he is "absolutely appalled" by the "utterly misguided and inflammatory" premise of Coral Ridge's report.

The documentary's theme is really quite simple: Darwin propounded the theory of evolution. Hitler came along and believed the theory. Hitler killed Jews. So, blame Darwin for the Holocaust. Blame, too, all others who agree with or advance Darwin's theory. Get back to God and Adam and Eve and all will be right again with the world.

"To put it simply, no Darwin, no Hitler," said Dr. D. James Kennedy, president of Coral Ridge Ministries. "The legacy of Charles Darwin is millions of deaths."

Obviously, the theme is breath-taking nonsense. You can't equate academic theory with murderous practice. You can't equate a thinker and a madman, or science and crime.

And you can't ever blame one man for another's actions. That once was a proud conservative precept. In a different context, you'll no doubt find Coral Ridge fervently preaching personal responsibility. Except, apparently, for Adolf Hitler, to whom these religious kooks issue a pass. Ol' Adolf, it seems, just fell in with a bad crowd.

By Coral Ridge's premise, Mohammed is to blame for Osama bin Laden. Actually, Coral Ridge might not argue with that. So how about this: The pope is to blame for the IRA. And Jesus is to blame for Mel Gibson, not to mention Coral Ridge Ministries.


To put it simply, no Newton, no falling on my ass when I am drunk.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 09:45 am
I'm sorry to have to say this wande but the piece you have quoted from the Arkansas News Bureau is really intended for juveniles and persons of low intelligence.

It makes assumptions about exceedingly complex historical events which are so oversimplified that they constitute a grave insult to any readers they are aimed at.

And this-

Quote:
You can't equate academic theory with murderous practice.


is pathetic. Has Mr Brummett never heard of Marx, Lenin or Mao.
Or Luther.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 09:55 am
Wandel, i don't know if that is repetition in this thread, or if i read it in another thread, but the "Coral Ridge Ministries" richly deserve the title of America's Taliban.

I'm betting, and obviously hoping, that this will be sufficiently extreme to embarrass others who might otherwise have thought that "intelligent design" or "creationism" merit serious consideration. One thing is certain, and that is that this kind of aggressive tripe is polarizing, and turns up the heat in any social debate.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 11:16 am
With lawyers and media outlets, and sundry other interested parties,turning the heat up is, to all intents a purposes the sole object of the excercise.

The kids in the schools are a long way down the list of priorities as they have been on this thread recently.

Posturing and preening,rich with the sort of invective that anti-Iders have shovelled my way during my time on here, though hopefully a little less crude, is seemingly all there is.

So I think Setanta has made an astoundingly acute prediction there.

I wonder if he knows what will win the Grand_Prix De La Arc de Triumph OO La-La!
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 11:34 am
Quote:
I wrote on the beach, with a stick of salty wood,
'Our deeds are but as writings on the shore',
Believing it: I never thought them more
Than prey for growling time; all ill, all good
Were friable as sand. There where I stood,
The wild wind whistled, driving all before,
And the inexorable waves, with a damped roar,
Strode on, like beasts that smell the living food.


Burgess at 18. spendi felt like that long before 18.

"Time, in fact, is rather vulgarly dramatic; it is the sentimentalist of the dimensions."

Constant Lambert - Music Ho!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 04:06 pm
"Time is the greatest innovator"
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 05:09 pm
Time wounds all heels.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Aug, 2006 05:28 pm
You can tell timber has never descended a ladder from the hay-loft with his kneecaps trembling like a saxophone player's reed on E minor.

Heels are the last thing one would think of.
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