Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

spendius wrote:

I don't think it possible to do that but from what anti-IDers have said about it it must be their obvious aim.

And what have I or other pro-logic people said that makes you say that? The fact that we don't want religion being taught in science? That's perfectly understandable. It's like saying, we don't want geology being taught in English literature classes.

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There's no chance of ever fixing society's problems. You are focussed on trivia. Science has no room for democracy or freedom.

Irrelevant and wrong.

Science does have rooms for democracy, the same way any corporation or organisation has room for democracy.

All you do is dodge the topic, spout irrelevancies and jump to unwarranted conclusions.

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Oh yeah. Contrarian to what? Nearly everybody I know has my attitude to committees of bleeding heart experts using language such as the above to line their cradles with soft,furry snuggle-kit. Except the one on them obviously. If ever there was a peat slurry it is your stuff. Breccia is brittle isn't it?

Explain what is "really sweet" enough to qualify for the approval of your committee.

One thing is for sure and that is that a www forum is not an extension of that committee and contrarians to the committee are not necessarily contrarians outside of it.

Does the committee withdraw its love from those it considers contrarians?

I tried counting the assertions in your final paragraph but they are woven together so intricately, as they are in the link Bernie provided, that I gave up.

What makes you think I have any interest in whether you read my posts or not. My posts are written for those, whoever they may be, who can extract any benefit from them. There's nothing in your's that has any chance of doing that as they are nothing but self-importance posturings as befits any respectable committee man.

Very ladylike I must say.

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Very ladylike?

I see... So you were lying when you said you actually thought I was a girl. You insult everyone by assigning the wrong gender to them.

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heres one from spendi to which I shall respond

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I defined "scientist" way back for you and its the opposite of that. "Goals" don't come into it. Darwin would never have got a grant out of that committee.

Through close connections with Adam Sedgewick andhis original mentor JS Henslow, Darwin merely applied for a "Ships naturalist" job that was open , just like Huxley took his post on the "Rattlesnake". There was no expectation of great ides. In fact, the very position contract (which was included in the AMNH display on Darwin this last year, actually was quite explicit that...'Mr Darwin and his man shall be responsible for the collection and description of the ...(it goes on a bit ,) They told Darwin what they expected of HIM So your metaphor is incorrect.

Then, from your post, I gather that you are not apparently in the world of science at all. Otherwise youd know that the number of research grants that are "Open ended' are quite rare. In fact, I dont know of any besides the McArthur grants , which also have requirement for a retrospective and a prospective proposal. The product must be identifiable.
In most research grantsmanship Theres no dishonor in NOT making the goals. It often leads to other grants , but , sadly,some times results in unimportant research termination..

Your"definition" of scientist needs quite a bit of refinement and some more hands on.

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Wolf wrote-

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I see... So you were lying when you said you actually thought I was a girl. You insult everyone by assigning the wrong gender to them.

Was it not obvious Wolf that I was replying to fm? It looks like you're not even reading today's posts.

I never assigned gender to you. I had thought you had previously said you were female but I must have been mistaken.

If you are going to continue on here, which I don't advise, let us be knowing. As of now it seems you are a male homesexual who has enough science to know that 2M Hydrochoric acid is not dangerous unless you swallow some or don't wash it off from which one might reasonably deduce that you are a student. Is all that correct or not?

Occasionally posts get out of sequence due to minor lapses in concentration. It is called "pipping" on the Trivia threads which you might enjoy more than this one. It is no big deal and one should try to learn to allow for it. But still,as you said, it's others who are at fault not you but that is because others are imperfect creatures.

But it is a fault in my book to have presumed I referred to you when even a cursory read of my response to fm would have been sufficient for a 10 year old to see it for what it was.

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fm wrote-(boldy asserting again)-

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Your"definition" of scientist needs quite a bit of refinement and some more hands on.

My definition of science is perfect and has been agreed on by peers of the highest calibre from whom I got it and for which I am very grateful.

I am unable to discuss my scientific background but I can say that grants from two-bit committees never entered the scene. Science proceeds in this country without the help of provincial committees with political agendas. Some of the principles are examined in great detail in CP Snow's Two Cultures which was concerned with the breakdown of communication between the sciences and the humanities, as we are here, and the long-standing debate about it. More modern thought concerns itself with the fragmentation of all learning in light of which Snow is now outdated. Foucault is more modern, some say post-modern, with his interest in the power/knowledge nexus of which committees are a part.

There is a longish classroom scene in Fellini's beautiful movie about late adolesence: Amarcord (I remember). You remind me of one of the teachers in it. The one who bangs a big walking stick down on the desk.

You must be aware fm that given the number of teachers required in the USA they can hardly be expected to have an average IQ above 105 and, in view of the pittance you pay them and the obviously dire working conditions, that will likely be something in the way of an exaggeration. Assertions are the standard method of trying to hide this weakness in the education system which, I'm afraid, we have here too. In the main it's just a job.

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Interesting find.

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Butchers discover an ancient animal

(If, according to Dr. Martin, 'it wouldn't have lasted more than a year', it is rather hard to believe that it has lasted 10,000-20,000 years.)

Enamel 'still on the teeth'.

Farmerman, from your expertise is that unusual?

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Hells bells RL,don't flatter fm. He's bad enough as it is.

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RL-bone, if its in the right anoxic condition , can adsorb flourine in its primary "apatite" crystal and become a Calcium- flourophosphate, which is a first step in fossilization. Perhaps the jaw was deposited elsewhere in an anoxic condition and then later was moved by erosion and movement in a stream, or a stream meandered over its place of "rest". Thats why matrix and context of fossils is so important ,(the fossil, out of place, is as meaningful as an arrowhead with no information of its location) so that the chemistry and sediment structure can be properly evaluated and dated. IF, however, the jaw was only deposited there(which I doubt because it was disarticulated pretty badly) , it is rather unusual for it to have lasted so long. Phil Agnew has a a pollen specialist on staff so, if the bones werent disturbed(not possible now), they could have reconstructed the environment by the plant types and the sediments.

Statistically, its a crap shoot to become a fossil. You need the right conditions and the right burial mode. While the old chestnut of "rapid burial" is true in most cases, its still possible to become fossil in open areas.
A number of mastodons and Columbia Mammoths in the US had been found containing projectile points from folsom /Meadowcroft type of cultures. Many of those were found at ancient "buffalo jumps" where animals were herded over low cliffs and they just piled up at the skree base and eventually became covered with further skree. Theres a place called "Head bashed In"(I believe its in the DAkotas) where paleozoologists have been excavating more than 50 Columbian mammoths and megatherean bison all tangled up but still fossilized by flourine substitution.

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What are they attempting to prove that we don't already know.

Finding bones, assuming they were found, putting bits through various machines, printing what the machine says, playing with the fancy, adding the English and some mumbo-jumbo and hey-presto an article in a science journal, going around claiming to have been published, getting a well paid job on the budget and going on expeditions looking for more bones with pretty research assistants.

That ain't science. That's piss-balling about. Good fun no doubt.

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FEDERAL GRANT UPDATE

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Statement from Chief of Staff David Dunn on Eligible AC/SMART Grant Majors
(U.S. Department of Education, August 24, 2006)

David Dunn, Chief of Staff for U.S. Department of Education, today issued the following statement on eligible majors under the Academic Competitiveness/SMART grant program:

"Recent news reports have suggested that Evolutionary Biology is not an eligible major under the new SMART grant program. This is incorrect and in fact the opposite is true. Evolutionary biology is a major eligible to receive SMART grants under the 'Ecology, Evolution, Systematics and Population Biology' category of majors.

"The misunderstanding occurred as the result of a draft document that omitted evolutionary biology from a list of majors put forth for use by colleges. As soon as the omission came to our attention, we took steps to correct it. However, regardless of its omission on that one document, evolutionary biology was and continues to be SMART grant eligible.

"The Department is making the necessary correction which will be in place before final guidance on AC/SMART grants is issued."

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wande-

Do you think a short tussle behind the scenes has taken place. I find it hard to believe the omissions were accidental although remotely possible.

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spendi,

It reminds me of the recent controversy in the UK where national exams were to require knowledge of creationism. That was also later corrected with the UK officials also saying they were misunderstood.

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Imagine, piss balling about the planet and getting paid to do it. AND I gets to listen to the "wisdom" of guys like spendi Laughing

Speaking of anoxic

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real life wrote:

(If, according to Dr. Martin, 'it wouldn't have lasted more than a year', it is rather hard to believe that it has lasted 10,000-20,000 years.)

He probably means "wouldn't have laster more than a year in its presently exposed condition". I thought that was pretty obvious.

Otherwise he would be implying that it's less than a year old. Do you think that's what Dr. Martin was implying, RL?

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
(If, according to Dr. Martin, 'it wouldn't have lasted more than a year', it is rather hard to believe that it has lasted 10,000-20,000 years.)

He probably means "wouldn't have laster more than a year in its presently exposed condition". I thought that was pretty obvious.

Otherwise he would be implying that it's less than a year old. Do you think that's what Dr. Martin was implying, RL?

No, I understood the context, Ros. I was being somewhat facetious, but not altogether.

The skull was said to have been exposed due to the low level of the river.

Do you think it's likely that the river has never been this low in 10,000-20,000 years?

It's been hot & dry on the Wakarusa this summer, but not THAT hot and dry.

I wonder if they will allow it to be broken open and check for DNA, like some of the recent dino finds. It would be interesting to see the result, don't you think?

Also the report did not give any detail as to the amount of fossilization, if any, that was apparent. I might have to drive to Tongy to look at the thing.

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Apparently, among the things on which rl does not have a firm grip are the mechanics of sedimentation, fossilization, erosion, streambed displacement, and fossilization.

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This thread is still alive?

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RL wrote-

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I might have to drive to Tongy to look at the thing.

That's the general idea mate. If you're thinking that there's millions of others doing the same and if a few thousand a month actually do it they are in business. Well- you will want muckin' and fodderin' when you get there. And ice-creams for the kids. A fashion shop or two for the wives who find mastodon's jawbones, moulded in a butcher's shop or not, boring after about 2 microseconds.

Do the bones contain any chemicals that might help to lower cholesterol levels. Most things do and I can't see why an extinct mastadon's jawbone would be any exception.

You could get a health farm and spin offs.

How much is a walk-up (is that a 2-up and 2-down in our money) in Tongy, which has a very nice name of which much could be made by a skilled ad. man starting with the jawbone of a mastadon.

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spendius wrote:

RL wrote-

Quote:
I might have to drive to Tongy to look at the thing.

That's the general idea mate. If you're thinking that there's millions of others doing the same and if a few thousand a month actually do it they are in business. Well- you will want muckin' and fodderin' when you get there. And ice-creams for the kids. A fashion shop or two for the wives who find mastodon's jawbones, moulded in a butcher's shop or not, boring after about 2 microseconds.

Do the bones contain any chemicals that might help to lower cholesterol levels. Most things do and I can't see why an extinct mastadon's jawbone would be any exception.

You could get a health farm and spin offs.

How much is a walk-up (is that a 2-up and 2-down in our money) in Tongy, which has a very nice name of which much could be made by a skilled ad. man starting with the jawbone of a mastadon.

Things start to get a little pricey in Tongy every few years until a tornado blows thru town.

Don't know if mastodon is the next cholesterol buster or not, but if you're having a steak at Bichelmeyer's, I guess it couldn't hurt.

btw Did timber hang out with you too long at the pub, spendi? Only one sentence and he's repeating himself. Firm grip, indeed.

Timber, if you have any real evidence of the Wakarusa being displaced, I'd be glad to look at it.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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